Supernait 2

Richard Dane posted:

Wonky, my question was Max was a rhetorical one. It has always been a performance decision. See my explanation above. Adding a resistor may help but ultimately it sounds worse. 

Or they could choose higher-resistance potentiometers. Does the signal really know whether it has travelled through a longer length of low resistance material or a shorter distance of higher-resistance material within the potentiometer?

Anyway, I'm sure that sound quality is the primary consideration for Naim here. But I still think that an amplifier with a higher resistance potentiometer would fool some customers into thinking it was less powerful (due to the perception of less "in reserve" on the dial). If I was trying to make/market/sell amplifiers, I'd certainly consider this as a factor.

(Wonky? Your freudian slip is showing)

Apologies, I posted on my iPhone and the dreaded autocorrect took control.  I have edited...

analogmusic posted:

for disclosure sake, Joe Rand sold his Supernait for a Plinius "HAUTONGA" and so is part of a group of ex-naim amplifier owners.

Thanks for letting me know, i'll be ignoring any of Joe's posts or music recommendations in future. In the interest of full disclosure and with Identity Politics being all the rage these days, i will now also identify myself as ENAO (Ex-Naim Amplifier Owners). I'm slightly confused though as i still own a couple of Naim amps so should i identify as myself as ENAUBSONA (Ex-Naim Amplifier User But Still Owns Naim Amplifiers) or ENAUNUD (Ex-Naim Amplifier User Now Uses Devialet).

Thinking about it, i do still use Naim mains cables so perhaps ENAUNUDBSUNMC (Ex-Naim Amplifier User Now Uses Devialet But Still Uses Naim Mains Cables) may be more appropriate ??

Very confusing. 

Yours,

Confused of Hampshire.

Richard Dane posted:

Apologies, I posted on my iPhone and the dreaded autocorrect took control.  I have edited...

Hey, you were one vowel from having to ban yourself ????

analogmusic posted:

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

It is so the amplifier seems powerful to the customer when demonstrated in the store.

That's an interesting premise. Most everything on this forum regarding Naim architecture is faithfully attributed to optimal design choices. Maybe simple marketing is the best answer in this case?

simple marketing?  What an ignorant, ill-informed and shallow minded conclusion.

for disclosure sake, Joe Rand sold his Supernait for a Plinius "HAUTONGA" and so is part of a group of ex-naim amplifier owners.

 

 

 

And this from a guy who accuses others of being negative and not polite to other members!!!!! 

By the way, Merry Christmas to all. Even you analog.

OMG, someone owns a non-Naim amplifier? 

Sacrilege!  Burn him at the stake I say! 

Oh, hang on a moment, I have a Cyrus CD player, tuner and amp connected to Ruark speakers with QED cable, so belay that order.

Merry Christmas and a tolerant, inclusive New Year everyone 

james n posted:

Thinking about it, i do still use Naim mains cables so perhaps ENAUNUDBSUNMC (Ex-Naim Amplifier User Now Uses Devialet But Still Uses Naim Mains Cables) may be more appropriate ?

Shouldn’t this be in the Expensive Cables thread? You could cross-post and catch ridicule twice if you play your cards right!

It is really starting to feel like someone should just yell “Can’t we all just get along, people?” But I fear revealing my age and Usenet experience... 

Regards alan

ChrisSU posted:

Wolf53 posted:

In any case, the sound of Supernait combined with the Thiel speakers and the dac Chord I really like !!!

Which Chord DAC are you using? The 2Qute has a high output that will not help. Some, including the Hugo, can be used with variable output which would allow the amp volume control to be used over a wider range. 

Yes i use the Chord 2qute connected to a Futro with os Daphile that allows me to attenuate the signal, so I solve the problem of liquid music.Thank you for your suggestion

Parts of this high gain discussion reminds me of automotive discussions about throttle tip in. Car discussions sometimes veer into the why are low power four cylinder cars given a higher throttle tip in to make the car feel snappier off the line? One side says gimmick, the other side contends that in terms of real world drivability and efficiency where less power is needed than people want, the initial tip in of the four cylinder is helpful where people want power the most, coming off the line. Gimmick or not, customers apparently aren't fooled if they are discussing it on forums.

I would think high gain at the preamp takes a lot of pressure off the amp to raise gain, so amp power can be used for handling dynamic transients without clipping rather than just raising the volume to a listenable level at the expense of headroom. I think it is more efficient, but it probably puts a premium on quality of the preamp to keep that high gain quality of immediacy from becoming distortion or self noise, and to keep soundstage depth from becoming flat.

You could also argue the opposite, that low gain could be a marketing gimmick used by other manufacturers to get you into crazy high dollar, high power amps because their preamps have too low a gain, requiring you to buy amps with megawatts to raise the volume above normal levels without clipping.

The truth is probably just that no manufacturer knows what the customer is going to connect their stuff to so they design it to be fairly flexible, but to sound excellent when matched with that maker's components. That's the best marketing of all in my opinion. If Naim's source, preamp, amp and speakers produce a sound to die for, I will want to buy all of them together.

I like Naim's approach very much. The sound quality is superb and it doesn't take megawatts to produce it. Low output sources like my old Kenwood tuner are still useable without needing 300 watts of amp power to get to 70 decibels.

Wolf53 posted:

In any case, the sound of Supernait combined with the Thiel speakers and the dac Chord I really like !!!

That's the main thing, which I'm glad about.

Seems I'm the only one who thinks the gain of pretty much any Naim preamp might have been set by the output level of  Naim phonostages.

Yours in his own canoe, Chris

Wolf I experienced the same problem with my SN2 seeming to have a lot of gain.  This is not helped by the fact my speakers are very sensitive at about 94dB

I did try an attenuated 5 pin cable from Flashback but I found that cable did not sound as good as the standard supplied Naim 5 pin cable, so I just put up with the gain for the improved sound quality

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

I wish everyone Happy Holidays!!

Richard Dane posted:

Max, Naim did make a change to the gain - lowering it very slightly at some point (I'd need to check my notes on exactly when but it was IIRC around the "Chrome Bumper" period).  However, radical change is not possible unless you totally change the architecture of the amps - as Naim is a performance-first company, there's no point in doing that unless there's a real performance gain - or abandon  cross-compatibility across the Naim range (new and old).  The latter would only be considered should the former mean a meaningful leap in performance. The fact that hitherto on the analogue pre-amps the gain has remained the same should give you your answer to the question.

Thanks, this is an answer. I wish I knew electronics well enough to fully appreciate it, but just so it is convincing to me.

On the other hand, if I knew electronics, I cannot imagine how much more analytic and less able to enjoy music I'd be....

Happy Everything,

Max

Foot tapper posted:

OMG, someone owns a non-Naim amplifier? 

Sacrilege!  Burn him at the stake I say! 

Oh, hang on a moment, I have a Cyrus CD player, tuner and amp connected to Ruark speakers with QED cable, so belay that order.

Merry Christmas and a tolerant, inclusive New Year everyone 

I too have a shameful admission to make I haven't used Naim amplifiers since 1993 but have a few friends who do and have a 01 as my tuner source.Always had the greatest respect for Naim as a company and met Doug Graham many times over the years and had good chats and a few beers.Current system uses a Nagra valve pre amp and a Dartzeel NHB 108 Poweramp which ticks all the boxes for me.Paul Messenger when he reviewed it thought it was the fastest amplifier he had ever heard and he was a 500 user.The seperation and timbre and holographic sound stage is magic.Definately a stayer.

Cant believe the way Joe has been made to feel ashamed just because he uses a amp to his ears sounds better in his system.Makes me think of the poster in the chrome bumper days Your nobody without a Naim.I know it was ment tounge in cheek in the advert but sychophantic people here who post such rude comments about a member who alot of people respect  with you don't own a  Naim amp you don't have an opinion is just like .......Your Nobody here with out a Naim amp.Sorry but found that comment so rude.

James - Joe -Toby and all you other members who have moved on amp wise but still have great affection for Naim....do what I am going to do.....new Identity... passport.... somewhere where they will never find us.... because if they do you will be taken to Salisbury and burnt like the Wicker Man...... As heretics !!

Wishing you all a jolly good Christmas

it's perfectly ok to have other kit, no issues.

It's not very nice to be cynical about Naim though... especially when our esteemed moderator has clarified SN has an ALPS blue pot, and this was NOT done for marketing reasons. Anyway.

Everything Naim does is for sound quality reasons. Why else do they use DIN connectors?

Why else do they use proprietary SNAIC cables which run signal and power together.

Is this done for marketing? Of course not. DIN connects annoy people at first. Then then may compare with DIN and understand why Naim does what it does. DIN are so much better sounding.

NACA5 is a very annoying cables, but why is that the Naim standard cable? ONLY because of sound quality.

Merry Christmas to all.

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

simple marketing?  What an ignorant, ill-informed and shallow minded conclusion. 

 

And this from a guy who accuses others of being negative and not polite to other members!!!!! 

By the way, Merry Christmas to all. Even you analog.

I know, right? Mr Pot, please meet Mr Kettle and Mrs Black.

Yes, merry Xmas to all.

Richard Dane posted:

Max, perhaps from Naim's view the high gain was necessary from a sound performance perspective?  

This is the most likely the reason.

All other things being equal, reducing the open-loop gain of an amp gives advantages in the dynamic performance of the amp, but requires a corresponding increase in the closed-loop gain (i.e. the one you see 'externally' when you look at the amp) to maintain stability.

It's probably an optimisation to ensure the desired 'PRaT' characteristics of the amp.

Back to the “higher than necessary gain” of the SN: according to Martin Colloms 2013 review “input sensitivity was rather high for the Mk I and has sensibly now been reduced”. The SN2 may still be a high gain amp, but less so than the original SN.

It's sort of like leaving the Established Church and becoming a dissenter.  And yes I'd like a little more adjustment.