Active vs passive system

My advice: Get a good - no very good source and excellent Pre, like the 552, then good Power Amps(s) like 135 or 300 and a pair of speakers that can be Activated and first run these passive with the above.

Then add more power Amps and an active crossover and Activate. Active is better IMO - far better, but for many an acquired taste that you can't un-aquire as it is very convincing and portrays music in an under-stated natural way where the fireworks in the presentation are there when they are actually there, layers of cloying coloration are gone and resolution of detail excels - but it is a lot of expense, so start with good passive.

DB.

Allante93 posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Allante93 posted:

 

Allante93! Did Rudolf bring you a Snaxo for Christmas? Or will it be next year?

Looks like next year, but japtimscarlet is point on!

Get it right the first time!

Waiting on an reply from NY US, SC has been Recapped, which is key when considering an unit more than 10 years of age.

Also one in the UK, has my attention, but after conversion cost (done by Audio Plus), and shipping cost, and recapping.

Me can't Do!

That's the deal breaker! 

Age of units SN#s 191xxx, 231xxx, even 271xxx is not worth the hassel!

In the meantime!

Cdx2>282

HCDR>282

HCDR> 3 x 250.2> Briks

Perched upon 7 tier 2 stack Fraimlite, ain't bad!

Maybe not the Full Blown Aktiv System I lived with for 2 decades:

LP 12/ Ghenki

Kairin > Linn XO with Bingo Card

3 LK 280s, Dirrack PS and last but not least, my trusty Briks!

Allante93!

PS. I will keep you posted, if I pull the Trigger!

It all depends on the date, and who done the recapping!

I hate being particular, but I have had some close calls, buying Pre-loved Naim Gear!

Audio Plus have came to my rescue, when dealing with an Canadian Dealer, concerning an full warranty demo 250.2, which happened to be over ten years of age, wasn't disclosed!

Getting long winded!

OUT!

Hungryhalibut posted:

Khan, I’m not sure if you are aware, but with an active system you nend an electronic  crossover that is set for the speakers you indend to use. So a Naim snaxo will work with Naim speakers and some Linn ones. Naim are also able to supply a version for use with active Kudos speakers. So you can’t just take any speaker, tweak it, and use it with Naim. Active systems are very revealing and so you do need a good source and preamp. One option, as you are starting from a zero base, could be a Naim preamp with some Active ATC speakers, say the 40A, or the 50A or 100A if you want something bigger. They have the electronic crossover and power amps on the back of the speakers, avoiding the need for a mountain of Naim amps. You may not like the sound of course, but it’s certainly an option worth investigating.

Hello Allante, been active for 30 years have way too many boxes and starting to clean up a bit,.... always thanks to my great dealer David in Mount Kisco ny "accent on music "' he always guides me in the right direction-

lyndon posted:

BLACKMOREC

which speakers would you suggest in preference to active DBLs ?

just curious 

????

lyndon

 

Yep, I wonder that too. Please do tell - I've heard many of these so-called superior altenatives...

Hi Khan

My experience is limited but, active is better... relative.

The principles of active over passive also make more sense to me.

We'd all be active if it weren't for more boxes/cables & more $$$. Changing/upgrading speakers also becomes a constraint.

However, as many have said, everything sounds more controlled & detailed. Drums especially excel on my system.

Why not start with 2-way passive that can be upgrade to active?

You've not said what speakers you intend to get & that is key.

Active options are:

2-way = (s)naxo2-4 & either 2 stereo naps or 4 mono naps

3-way = (s)naxo3-6 & either 3 stereo naps or 6 mono naps

My view, Naim products are obviously designed for passive setups. Yes, they can be used in an active setup but the thought of using a NAP to drive a tweeter is a little preposterous.

ATC active speakers on the other hand are designed from the ground up to be active. They make all their own high quality drivers and built in amps that offer a sound quality that is very hard to beat. Well worth an audition.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....repeat until time itself ends.

I have to say that I find it hard to believe some of the posts on this thread.

Since my first Naim purchase over 30 years ago, the holy grail has always been active and if you have ever heard it you would know why.

I currently have 3 250DRs driving NBLs and have for a while been nervous about the lack of active options should the NBLs fail (this was before the Kudos option). Accordingly I asked my dealer, whose opinion I respect, whether I should look to go 500DR passive with my current speakers to 'future proof'. The very short answer, and bear in mind this was turning down a potentially profitable sale, was NO.

I accept that the expense and the box count is not for everybody but to suggest that Naim products are designed for passive set ups just beggars belief.

Halloween Man posted:

My view, Naim products are obviously designed for passive setups. Yes, they can be used in an active setup but the thought of using a NAP to drive a tweeter is a little preposterous.

Err...completely wrong on both counts.

Correct me if I am wrong Tony but are you not using each channel of one of your Nap500 to drive each tweeter of your DBL speakers?

I think the point Tony is making is that it isn’t preposterous to use a NAP on the tweeter. Indeed you only have to witness and hear the improvement from using a better NAP on the tweeter to completely be convinced at it being a good idea.

Nick from Suffolk posted:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....repeat until time itself ends.

Using a 140w £20k power amp to drive a tweeter? That's my point. I'm happy for you to disagree but a little common courtesy wouldn't go amiss. If you were to design an active system from the ground up I very much doubt this would resemble your final product.

Halloween Man posted:

Nick from Suffolk posted:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....repeat until time itself ends.

Using a 140w £20k power amp to drive a tweeter? That's my point. I'm happy for you to disagree but a little common courtesy wouldn't go amiss. If you were to design an active system from the ground up I very much doubt this would resemble your final product.

The best amp, and usually this is the most expensive one, has to drive the tweeters. And the funny thing is that even the bass gets better this way. At least according to my experience.

Halloween Man posted:

Nick from Suffolk posted:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....repeat until time itself ends.

Using a 140w £20k power amp to drive a tweeter? That's my point. I'm happy for you to disagree but a little common courtesy wouldn't go amiss. If you were to design an active system from the ground up I very much doubt this would resemble your final product.

I was being courteous.

Khan,

Read Bark Bear's input very carefully. It's the best advice within this thread. Buy the best pre-amp you can, and speakers that can be run both active or passive. Start with them passive - assuming funds are limited. As more funds become available, buy more power amps and an active filter (Snaxo).

As I say, read BD's post carefully. It's good advice.

Cheers

Don

Re power amps, quality may be most obvious on tweeter or mid (which may depend on the particular drivers involved), however power requirement is less as you go up the frequency range, However in the Naim range the power goes up with the quality, making the theoretical ideal 3* NAP500s (with an unlimited wallet - or 3* Statements with an unlimited bank account...)

I think that what ATC do is have the same quality of amp, but with power delivery tailored so saving the cost of the mid and treble amps. (N.B. this is not making any inference about which of Naim and ATC power amps might sound better than the other.)

Halloween Man,

if you go back to the early days of Naim they always advised that going active was the ultimate end game for system building. However, due to their revealing nature one should have the very best source and pre available before considering going active. Naim speakers were generally designed to be actively driven. Paxo’s were then an add on components allowing passive playback until you were ready to go active.

Thus, the highest expression of a Naim system was an active one using their own ‘speakers with an LP12, then CDS and so on. They also recommended using their best power amps passive before going active. So a 250, or later a pair of 135s would be duplicated  (or triplicated?) to go active, ie the best power amp they made for each drive unit. Anything else was sub optimal.

To the OP I would also follow DBs advice along with the purchase of some good condition SBLs for a low cost experimental ‘speaker.

I only heard an active system once, a Forum member living in Tonbridge Wells back in the day. CDS, 52, 2x250 into SBLs. Simply magical.....

Stu

Exactly, perfectly matching power and crossover to driver. ATC integrate their own custom power amps, crossovers, and drivers to give as best match as possible. Naim do not offer this. I'm not saying one brand sounds better than the other, that is subjective, but I do believe ATC offer bang for buck when it comes to active setup - less redundancy, no over spec'd amps, expensive casework etc. No doubt there are also compromises with ATC design - cramming all that into a small space.

As I said previously, ATC offer a sound quality that is very hard to beat. I also do not doubt for a second that an active Naim system will sound superb but I would personally want to audition both before making a decision. My humble SCM40A actives with Hugo TT make me feel privileged every time I listen to it, it's unreal (in that it sounds so real).

All the best to all 

My experience of ATC was a rather dry and somewhat monotonous presentation.

With ATC you are either Active or Passive. With Naim, you can gradually develop your system, as funding allows, starting with passive then moving to active.

Quite a few people found that running  a pair of 135s into a pair of active Bariks, supported by a pair of 250s provided an excellent presentation. Far better than anything ATC produced IMHO.

OTOH, ATC did produce some excellent drivers for their speakers. And ISTR that Naim used some of these in some of their speakers, but I could easily have got this (fact ?) wrong !

Don Atkinson posted:

My experience of ATC was a rather dry and somewhat monotonous presentation.

With ATC you are either Active or Passive. With Naim, you can gradually develop your system, as funding allows, starting with passive then moving to active.

Quite a few people found that running  a pair of 135s into a pair of active Bariks, supported by a pair of 250s provided an excellent presentation. Far better than anything ATC produced IMHO.

OTOH, ATC did produce some excellent drivers for their speakers. And ISTR that Naim used some of these in some of their speakers, but I could easily have got this (fact ?) wrong !

In my experience, ATC make excellent speakers and they're a very good company. Not quite to my taste, sounding a bit clinical to my ears. You're quite correct on that last point Don - ATC made the 15" bass drivers for my DBLs, and will still repair them should something go wrong (usually the rubber surrounds).

Hi Don, the earlier ATC speakers with the SEAS and Vifa tweeters could sound quite dry and analytical... I rather liked it.. but not everyone’s cup of tea. The newer consumer range with new  ATC tweeter and crossover have a very different presentation that feels altogether more organic and emotional... it did take a bit of getting used having come from the analytical camp.. but I firmly enjoy their new presentation now.

Halloween Nan,

my post was simply to offer a friendly challenge to your earlier post:

“My view, Naim products are obviously designed for passive setups. Yes, they can be used in an active setup but the thought of using a NAP to drive a tweeter is a little preposterous”.

The points being that Naim are not obviously designed for passive operation, and that their best Naps driving tweeters is not preposterous!

Glad you are happy with ATC which is the ultimate point of all this anyway .

I suspect that if my pockets were deeper I would activate my humble setup.

Stu

tonym posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

My experience of ATC was a rather dry and somewhat monotonous presentation.

With ATC you are either Active or Passive. With Naim, you can gradually develop your system, as funding allows, starting with passive then moving to active.

Quite a few people found that running  a pair of 135s into a pair of active Bariks, supported by a pair of 250s provided an excellent presentation. Far better than anything ATC produced IMHO.

OTOH, ATC did produce some excellent drivers for their speakers. And ISTR that Naim used some of these in some of their speakers, but I could easily have got this (fact ?) wrong !

In my experience, ATC make excellent speakers and they're a very good company. Not quite to my taste, sounding a bit clinical to my ears. You're quite correct on that last point Don - ATC made the 15" bass drivers for my DBLs, and will still repair them should something go wrong (usually the rubber surrounds).

Ah ! Thanks Tony, I had that "feeling" that naim used ATC drivers in some of their speakers. My recollection is that they were pretty selective as to which ones got used and even then Naim added weights or did  something to get the sound they wanted. ATC have a good reputation.

As for their sound, Yes ATC were good, but not my cup-of-tea !

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi Don, the earlier ATC speakers with the SEAS and Vifa tweeters could sound quite dry and analytical... I rather liked it.. but not everyone’s cup of tea. The newer consumer range with new  ATC tweeter and crossover have a very different presentation that feels altogether more organic and emotional... it did take a bit of getting used having come from the analytical camp.. but I firmly enjoy their new presentation now.

Hi Simon,

I haven't hear the newer range, so it might be more to my liking than of old. We all vary in what we enjoy - fortunately !

stuart.ashen posted:

Halloween Man,

if you go back to the early days of Naim they always advised that going active was the ultimate end game for system building. However, due to their revealing nature one should have the very best source and pre available before considering going active. Naim speakers were generally designed to be actively driven. Paxo’s were then an add on components allowing passive playback until you were ready to go active.

Thus, the highest expression of a Naim system was an active one using their own ‘speakers with an LP12, then CDS and so on. They also recommended using their best power amps passive before going active. So a 250, or later a pair of 135s would be duplicated  (or triplicated?) to go active, ie the best power amp they made for each drive unit. Anything else was sub optimal.

To the OP I would also follow DBs advice along with the purchase of some good condition SBLs for a low cost experimental ‘speaker.

I only heard an active system once, a Forum member living in Tonbridge Wells back in the day. CDS, 52, 2x250 into SBLs. Simply magical.....

Stu

Hard to disagree with that Stu!

We all know it started with Linn and Naim!

The Source was Linn~ LP 12, Linn wasn't noted for their Speakers.

Naim took care of the Middle (the electronics).

As time moved on, Naim & Linn became proficient at manufacturing Speakers and other components.

DBLs & Briks! But this was  years later.

I would say, the the Linn/Naim Empire peaked during the early Ninety's, before the devoice!

(LP 12 > Six Pack > Active Briks)

Now that was an hell of a System DB had!

A Trio of 500,s > Briks!

And a decade ago: CES 2007

Naim Debuts its Reference CDP:

CD555>282>Snaxo>250s>DBLs

To your point Stu, I wouldn't bother with an Active System, less than their middle of the road 282, and their pride & joy regulated 250s!

Just saying, only 30 years experience with Aktiv Linn, 3 years with Naim!

Out!

Allante93!