Naim new products 2018

I having just had two faulty Novas in a row am now a firm believer in sticking with what's tried and tested!

The Nova when working was sonically excellent BUT, my new NDX/Supernait2 is in a completely different league! You mention noise floor and this is one of the stand out factors that jumped out at me instantly within a matter of minutes of playing the first couple of tracks! I would love to hear my combination with external power supplies!

Hungryhalibut posted:

It’s been said by Naim, and several times on this thread, that the classic look is to be retained. So the NDS2 will still match the rest. I’m still hoping for a 372 without onboard power supply and with a double burndy power supply option. 

Hmm, I'm not so sure. The 'classic' range is in the market now (and in the past). The NDS replacement would be new, and therefore not necessarily 'classic'.

I think perhaps Naim meant they wouldn't be reboxing current 'classic' products to match the Uniti, not that new (and therefore not classic) products wouldn't have a new box design.

Solid Air posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

It’s been said by Naim, and several times on this thread, that the classic look is to be retained. So the NDS2 will still match the rest. I’m still hoping for a 372 without onboard power supply and with a double burndy power supply option. 

Hmm, I'm not so sure. The 'classic' range is in the market now (and in the past). The NDS replacement would be new, and therefore not necessarily 'classic'.

I think perhaps Naim meant they wouldn't be reboxing current 'classic' products to match the Uniti, not that new (and therefore not classic) products wouldn't have a new box design.

We’re all interpreting what Naim said... but my interpretation is the same as HH’s interpretation - that Naim would not be abandoning the “classic” Triptich design and that there would be new streamers to match the existing Classic pre and power amps.

As I recall it was stated they understood that the “volume on top” design was inappropriate for multi-box systems.

Sure - certainly not suggesting they’ll adopt the top volume, etc,  for rack-based systems, but they may take design elements from Uniti for a front-facing design. 

The NDS is in the classic range now. They could delete it and the others, launch a new range of streamers called (hypothetically) the Naim Humdinger 1, 2 and 3 - and they’re not ‘classic’.

My guess is they’ll take some cues from the Uniti range and some from the classics to keep it matching. Slow evolution. 

I think it is ludicrous to suggest that Naim will release new, updated products in the old casing. They never did that when they moved from CB to olive, or from olive to triptych, and why on Earth would they do it now? Statement, Muso, and now Uniti, have moved to the new style, as has the website and forum, and as new streamers are released in the Classic range, they are bound to follow suit. Naim have very carefully worded their intentions that existing Classic products will not be put into new style boxes, but as the new products will no doubt have new names and different innards, why would anybody think to put them in the old style boxes?  

Let’s hope they don’t come unstuck.

If  naim  were planning new product the coming year surely they would have attended the las vegas show.

I think the Bristol show will be the one to watch 

We might see a new 500 series item in a 500/Classic series case..........

The ND555?

I agree it’s likely to be Bristol, an ND555 but with a twist, something we have not envisaged.....

from some experiments we tried, a streamer with SFP (fiber optic inputs) would be very interesting.

Indeed, it would be interesting if that appears shortly, because of course SFPs can be used for twisted pair or and different  fibre configurations.. one simply swaps out the SFP adapter.. and twisted pair could be the default when you purchase the item. I did suggest to Naim 13 months ago that they revisit it. They had previously looked at it and discounted because they felt it would not be meaningful for many of their customers, but perhaps things have moved on in consumer land... at least that will give proper fibre access, and not the Frankenstein kludge of media converters which I am convinced is mostly not helping under the covers and masking other issues that should be properly addressed... so we will wait and see. However given the possible imminent announcement  of a  500 series streamer.. I suspect it won’t have them, otherwise I might have got a different response from Naim 13 months ago... these things take a long time to develop.

I'm not so sure about the likelihood of a 500 series or statement streamer given that at it's price point it would need to show a really significant SQ uplift on the current NDS which is not an easy ask.

Taking the 500 series as it stands both the 500 and (particularly) 552 show significant SQ improvement on the top of the Classic range but for me (and I know I am going to have to put on a tin hat in saying this) the CD555 did not show the same level of improvement on the CDS3 at least not to justify the price differential, I home demoed one twice and just could not justify it. My suspicion is that this is a result of a more rapid case of diminishing returns in application of digital technology and the same may apply to streamers.

My feeling is that an updated NDS will be the outcome. We shall see.

Hi CAMLAN,

A brief tangent, if I may?  Were you ever able to compare your active NBLs with a passive pair?  We have a lovely pair of passive NBLs in the family (owned from new) but I've ben wondering about activating them.  The current amp is a recently Naim serviced 82/SC/250 that was bought new with the NBLs.

Best regards, FT

p.s. I agree about an updated NDS being a likely 2018 launch.  Unsure whether it will be called an NDS.2 or ND555 though.

Hi Foot Tapper

No I never have although I do have the passive crossovers so I suppose I could if I wanted to. I moved to the NBLs from an active SBL set up by buying an ex dem pair when they were discontinued so never really had the inclination to as, at that time, it would have seemed a backward step.

I have always understood that the NBLs were primarily designed for active use and given my experience of them then I can only strongly recommend that you give it a try. I guess the problem that you have though is that a demo is not going to be easy because you will need to source a relevant SNAXO, the additional 250s are not so much of an issue.

I don't know where you are in the country but if you are close to North Wales you are welcome to have a listen to mine.

Camlan posted:

....given that at it's price point it would need to show a really significant SQ uplift on the current NDS which is not an easy ask.

 

No one said it would be easy, which is why it may well be a 500 series streamer..... although not easy, absolutely possible. For me personally the NDS is good, but I am confident Naim can do even better, perhaps a lot better... their knowledge, and the capabilities in the industry have developed a fair amount since the NDS and NDX were developed... certainly at the DAC/ DSP reconstruction filter side of things 

ChrisSU posted:

I think it is ludicrous to suggest that Naim will release new, updated products in the old casing. They never did that when they moved from CB to olive, or from olive to triptych, and why on Earth would they do it now? Statement, Muso, and now Uniti, have moved to the new style, as has the website and forum, and as new streamers are released in the Classic range, they are bound to follow suit. Naim have very carefully worded their intentions that existing Classic products will not be put into new style boxes, but as the new products will no doubt have new names and different innards, why would anybody think to put them in the old style boxes?  

The way I see it is that the new NDS, NDX and 272 will look the same as the current ones, but with a glass ‘Uniti’ screen filling most or all of the right hand third. 

When CB became Olive, and when Olive became Black it was possible to change all the boxes. But I don’t imagine for a second that all the boxes would change to the Uniti look - can you imagine a six box setup with plastic bars across the bottom? The Uniti range is more of a lifestyle choice. The Classic range needs to look sober and sophisticated, not shiny shiny. 

Many thanks CAMLAN; that makes a lot of sense.  East of England, so not too close. 

We are popping over to Fishguard in the summer, though that seems to be an extraordinary long way away from anywhere.  It's 2 hours drive west of Cardiff!  It's not too close to north Wales either, though the drive would be superb.

Looks like it will be an act of faith then.

Best regards, FT

It strikes me that Naim have had more than enough challenge over the last 15 months so I can imagine that prolonging the period of consolidation might be a good idea.  

That said I’m wryly amused that the 272 only a little while ago the saviour of the universe is now technically redundant.   Oh well

Given the success of Amazon Alexa on the Echo and the Google Assistant on the Home, I have to believe that Naim will bring Alexa and Assistant integration to the Uniti series if it is to appeal to a younger (read volume) market.  Google and Amazon are shipping millions of these things; the trend can’t be ignored.

The Classic series is on a different timeline, but it needs to offer a viable upgrade path for Uniti users that get hooked on the Naim sound.  So the streamers have to keep relatively current.  I’m expecting streamer replacements and/or upgrades for the current models (e.g. like the DR upgrades - return-to-factory type).

The vertically-oriented, two-box, Statement streamer - stacks neatly with your Statement - will lead to a number of streamer trickle-downs (same as DR)!

I feel the upgrade itch coming already!

mf99 posted:

I’m expecting streamer replacements and/or upgrades for the current models (e.g. like the DR upgrades - return-to-factory type).

The new Uniti products are far more powerful (architecturally) than the existing streamers. My guess is, an 'upgrade' won't be possible - they'd have to take everything out and replace it. Even those that cost many thousands of pounds are probably not worth upgrading. This will be a fundamental change.

Upgrades to the new platform won’t be possible. 

Peakman posted:

That's interesting.  Could you please point me to the reviews that have compared SQ of the pre/streamer section of the Nova to the 272?  BTW have you done the comparison yourself?

Whilst the prospect of a financial hit from reduced second hand value in the event of a replacement might just be a reason for holding off purchase of a 272, doing so also forgoes (for an unknown time) the pleasure to be had from enjoying what I and at least some others regard as one of the relative bargains of the Naim range.

Roger

Excuse the pruning - just to avoid long requotes.

To answer your question - no I haven't done the comparison but I have heard 272/250 vs SU (as preamp)/250 and preferred the 272/250 as you would expect. But not so much as I HAD to upgrade now. To my mind the big benefit of the 272 would come when I could add an XPS.

Now I except that reviews tend to be a little effusive (including amateur ones here) but the consensus is that Nova is a lot better than SU. As I understand it the key changes are the new streaming architecture and digital domain preamp rather than the power amp. Therefore it is likely that those would also outperform the equivalents in a 272 given that those  are rather similar to the SU. I realise that I am making some extrapolations here but that is why I used the word "imply".

You make a fair point about the merits of enjoying a 272 now versus delaying gratification. But while I can afford to write off a grand of needless depreciation on a 272 on the day the the 372 (or whatever) is launched I am not willing to do so. If I wasn't enjoying my SU/250 now I might feel differently!

I’ve not done the comparisons but have spoken to two dealers who I trust who have - one said that the Nova was a lot better than the SU, and the other said that the 272/250 was a lot better than the Nova/250. But yes, if I had an SU/250 that I was happy with, I’d be inclined to wait and see what’s around the corner. 

Simon made a point above about Naim thinking that one or two of the things they have done may have been a mistake in hindsight, which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement, especially given that the 172 has gone and the 272 is now the only streaming preamp. I’d love to be able to get a better streaming preamp, and certainly won’t be going from four to six boxes. A little while ago I thought the end was nigh for the 202, 282 and 252 and that a wider range of streaming preamps would take their place. Now I’m not so sure. Interesting times. 

Solid Air posted:

The new Uniti products are far more powerful (architecturally) than the existing streamers. My guess is, an 'upgrade' won't be possible - they'd have to take everything out and replace it. 

What I'm "hoping" for is that Naim will have avoided the mistakes of the Gen.1 platform (to use my own vernacular) which is now a dead end for those who have Classic Streamers or NAC-N 172/272 devices; and have developed a platform which when Gen.3 comes along will allow upgrades of the streaming modules separate from the rest of the electronics.

But then why would anyone expect upgrades?  Excepting the DR upgrades, what upgrades have Naim offered in the past?  Did those who bought CDS players get opportunity to upgrade to CDS2?  No one who bought a NAC122x got an upgrade to a NAC152XS did they?

HH referred to Simon's suggestion of "Naim thinking [...] they have [made] mistake[s] in hindsight".  I would suggest that the lack of upgradability of the Classic line streamers / streamer-preamps for a newer platform may be one.  As I understand it the "old" streamers used modules from StreamUnlimited while the new streamers use an in-house developed design.  Hopefully Naim have learned and there is more flexibility for the future (without any guarantees of course).

Alternatively perhaps Naim will think "outside the box" and build a separate streaming module similar sized to say the Stageline.  Have a dedicated connection (including power) back to a line of DACs / Control boxes - so one streaming module would serve duty for 2 or 3 different "classic" line sources as well as working with various NAC-N pre-amps.  The streaming module could later be replaced to support different services; or have a version somewhat akin to the core combining the server and streamer.