Naim new products 2018

HH - You may be right. It's a good point: Naim may run the 272 until demand dries up and then delete it without replacement, hoping people will go higher up the range (the risk being they go down to a Nova instead, but in margin terms they're probably ok-ish with that, as long as enough go up.)

I hope they do replace the 272, seeing it as a good way to move people up from Nova to separates. If they don't, I won't be replacing my 172 with two boxes, let alone three. I will look elsewhere: Chord, Auralic, Bryston, Linn, Devialet …

For once, Chord seem to have produced something - Qutest - that doesn't look as if a small child designed it with crayons.

Solid Air posted:

I hope they do replace the 272, seeing it as a good way to move people up from Nova to separates. If they don't, I won't be replacing my 172 with two boxes, let alone three. I will look elsewhere: Chord, Auralic, Bryston, Linn, Devialet …

Thats the balance that Naim face ... cannibalising their own sales of HDX/202 vs 272; vs losing sales to other manufacturers.

For once, Chord seem to have produced something - Qutest - that doesn't look as if a small child designed it with crayons.

They just need a Poly equivalent (with perhaps a version of the Blu 2 m-scaler?) to match the Qutest.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted

No one said it would be easy, which is why it may well be a 500 series streamer..... although not easy, absolutely possible. For me personally the NDS is good, but I am confident Naim can do even better, perhaps a lot better... their knowledge, and the capabilities in the industry have developed a fair amount since the NDS and NDX were developed... certainly at the DAC/ DSP reconstruction filter side of things 

Simon, what I don’t understand is how can NAIM produce a reference steamer without any real internal DAC chip IP/know how. Yes, they can do better in the streaming engine part (the new platform, Roon integration...) and the DSP part but the competition with their FPGA s or NOS designs seems to have leapfrogged NAIM and the 17xx chips. Am I missing the point here? 

For me if Naim decided that FPGA was the way forward, I am sure they can do it, given time. Smaller companies have, such as DCS with their ring dac. I think the clincher for this is, do they believe it sounds better than their approach of a few years back when designing the NDS dac. Which was using the best sounding off the shelf Dacs from Burr Brown and giving them the Naim treatment. Not everyone likes the sound of the Chord dacs.......so perhaps Naim will come up with something new or continue a well trodden path?

Re Naim getting ahead of the posse with DAC know how.    Why not employ a specialist or subcontract the research/development out?    - I think you will find they do a lot of that anyway.                 My old cmpy was  in refrigeration/climate/atmosphere control & over the years we developed data logging over wires, wireless & cell networks,   eventually datalogging & two way control over satellite.   All the research & development was 3rd party,  the only people we employed directly were engineering integration, marketing & 3rd party product mngrs.   

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve not done the comparisons but have spoken to two dealers who I trust who have - one said that the Nova was a lot better than the SU, and the other said that the 272/250 was a lot better than the Nova/250. But yes, if I had an SU/250 that I was happy with, I’d be inclined to wait and see what’s around the corner. 

Simon made a point above about Naim thinking that one or two of the things they have done may have been a mistake in hindsight, which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement, especially given that the 172 has gone and the 272 is now the only streaming preamp. I’d love to be able to get a better streaming preamp, and certainly won’t be going from four to six boxes. A little while ago I thought the end was nigh for the 202, 282 and 252 and that a wider range of streaming preamps would take their place. Now I’m not so sure. Interesting times. 

There is competition so maybe 272 got lots of other make customers converted to Naim which later added 300dr, SL cabling , 555ps etc.

İt is a better starting price proposition vs NDX/xps/282/hicap but önce you got the poison you start to add on...

How much money did we spent after 272? So “free” streamer vs 282 created lots of additional revenue to Naim...

Emre posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve not done the comparisons but have spoken to two dealers who I trust who have - one said that the Nova was a lot better than the SU, and the other said that the 272/250 was a lot better than the Nova/250. But yes, if I had an SU/250 that I was happy with, I’d be inclined to wait and see what’s around the corner. 

Simon made a point above about Naim thinking that one or two of the things they have done may have been a mistake in hindsight, which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement, especially given that the 172 has gone and the 272 is now the only streaming preamp. I’d love to be able to get a better streaming preamp, and certainly won’t be going from four to six boxes. A little while ago I thought the end was nigh for the 202, 282 and 252 and that a wider range of streaming preamps would take their place. Now I’m not so sure. Interesting times. 

There is competition so maybe 272 got lots of other make customers converted to Naim which later added 300dr, SL cabling , 555ps etc.

İt is a better starting price proposition vs NDX/xps/282/hicap but önce you got the poison you start to add on...

How much money did we spent after 272? So “free” streamer vs 282 created lots of additional revenue to Naim...

You have an interesting take on 'starting price proposition'! In terms of Naim separates, what's wrong with NDX/202/200, still beyond the wildest dreams of many sane people.

Eloise posted:

Solid Air posted:

The new Uniti products are far more powerful (architecturally) than the existing streamers. My guess is, an 'upgrade' won't be possible - they'd have to take everything out and replace it. 

What I'm "hoping" for is that Naim will have avoided the mistakes of the Gen.1 platform (to use my own vernacular) which is now a dead end for those who have Classic Streamers or NAC-N 172/272 devices; and have developed a platform which when Gen.3 comes along will allow upgrades of the streaming modules separate from the rest of the electronics.

But then why would anyone expect upgrades?  Excepting the DR upgrades, what upgrades have Naim offered in the past?  Did those who bought CDS players get opportunity to upgrade to CDS2?  No one who bought a NAC122x got an upgrade to a NAC152XS did they?

HH referred to Simon's suggestion of "Naim thinking [...] they have [made] mistake[s] in hindsight".  I would suggest that the lack of upgradability of the Classic line streamers / streamer-preamps for a newer platform may be one.  As I understand it the "old" streamers used modules from StreamUnlimited while the new streamers use an in-house developed design.  Hopefully Naim have learned and there is more flexibility for the future (without any guarantees of course).

Alternatively perhaps Naim will think "outside the box" and build a separate streaming module similar sized to say the Stageline.  Have a dedicated connection (including power) back to a line of DACs / Control boxes - so one streaming module would serve duty for 2 or 3 different "classic" line sources as well as working with various NAC-N pre-amps.  The streaming module could later be replaced to support different services; or have a version somewhat akin to the core combining the server and streamer.

Naim did offer an upgrade from CDS1 to CDS2 at a very attractive price for a short time.

Emre posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve not done the comparisons but have spoken to two dealers who I trust who have - one said that the Nova was a lot better than the SU, and the other said that the 272/250 was a lot better than the Nova/250. But yes, if I had an SU/250 that I was happy with, I’d be inclined to wait and see what’s around the corner. 

Simon made a point above about Naim thinking that one or two of the things they have done may have been a mistake in hindsight, which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement, especially given that the 172 has gone and the 272 is now the only streaming preamp. I’d love to be able to get a better streaming preamp, and certainly won’t be going from four to six boxes. A little while ago I thought the end was nigh for the 202, 282 and 252 and that a wider range of streaming preamps would take their place. Now I’m not so sure. Interesting times. 

There is competition so maybe 272 got lots of other make customers converted to Naim which later added 300dr, SL cabling , 555ps etc.

İt is a better starting price proposition vs NDX/xps/282/hicap but önce you got the poison you start to add on...

How much money did we spent after 272? So “free” streamer vs 282 created lots of additional revenue to Naim...

It would be wrong for us to think that people who post in threads like this represent an economically important part of Naim's customer base. And so what we think is probably not a good guide to what they will in fact do. Time will tell anyway.

best

David

Yes - Naim have offered upgrades to in-life products in the past, eg the UnitiQute upgrade.  But that was a situation where the box and many components were in common. The new Uniti range is a large-scale change - box, connections, screen, boards, etc. So I very much doubt there is any upgrade that can sensibly be done. My guess is it would literally be cheaper to just replace the whole thing. 

The more people try to chain Naim to the past, the less we will unfortunately get in the long term. We are all here for various reasons, but hopefully, are drawn by the the music portrayal we love.

To stick with the concept of six, eight, ten or more boxes would be a mistake in my view. Who wants their sitting room to look like something from a hifi show? Less (or fewer in this case) is more. Linn can do it, so why can’t Naim?

Hungryhalibut posted:

To stick with the concept of six, eight, ten or more boxes would be a mistake in my view. Who wants their sitting room to look like something from a hifi show? Less (or fewer in this case) is more. Linn can do it, so why can’t Naim?

Exactly, 272 = fewer boxes without compromising SQ.

I,ve always wondered if naim are going to alter the PSU’s to something like Linn’s switch mode concept and or have more PSU’s that can power more than one item.

I have 4 boxes (slimline xs).  I would like a ps for my streamer but can’t bring myself to make that purchase taking my total to 5 boxes.  Surely naim can make one box that supplies power to a pre and a digital source... that’s on my wish list for 2018. 

My understanding is the Uniti range does have switch mode power supply. But if Naim still believe separating the brains from the brawn is a sound quality necessity, then that is what we will get. We then have to choose. If you want fewer boxes, take a Linn. Listened recently to Linn , myself they were disappointing IMO. I would take more boxes and enjoy the music.

Gazza posted:

My understanding is the Uniti range does have switch mode power supply. But if Naim still believe separating the brains from the brawn is a sound quality necessity, then that is what we will get. We then have to choose. If you want fewer boxes, take a Linn. Listened recently to Linn , myself they were disappointing IMO. I would take more boxes and enjoy the music.

Statement has a SMPS, but only to keep it in standby mode to comply with energy efficiency regulations. Maybe the new Unitis are the same, but the main PSUs in them are linear. The Unitiserve was SMPS, and it's replacement, the Core, is linear.

wrc posted:

I have 4 boxes (slimline xs).  I would like a ps for my streamer but can’t bring myself to make that purchase taking my total to 5 boxes.  Surely naim can make one box that supplies power to a pre and a digital source... that’s on my wish list for 2018. 

 

You could always move from 4 thin boxes to 2 fat ones. 272/200 for example. Then start saving for a PSU!

ChrisSU posted:

Emre posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve not done the comparisons but have spoken to two dealers who I trust who have - one said that the Nova was a lot better than the SU, and the other said that the 272/250 was a lot better than the Nova/250. But yes, if I had an SU/250 that I was happy with, I’d be inclined to wait and see what’s around the corner. 

Simon made a point above about Naim thinking that one or two of the things they have done may have been a mistake in hindsight, which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement, especially given that the 172 has gone and the 272 is now the only streaming preamp. I’d love to be able to get a better streaming preamp, and certainly won’t be going from four to six boxes. A little while ago I thought the end was nigh for the 202, 282 and 252 and that a wider range of streaming preamps would take their place. Now I’m not so sure. Interesting times. 

There is competition so maybe 272 got lots of other make customers converted to Naim which later added 300dr, SL cabling , 555ps etc.

İt is a better starting price proposition vs NDX/xps/282/hicap but önce you got the poison you start to add on...

How much money did we spent after 272? So “free” streamer vs 282 created lots of additional revenue to Naim...

You have an interesting take on 'starting price proposition'! In terms of Naim separates, what's wrong with NDX/202/200, still beyond the wildest dreams of many sane people.

whats wrong with NDX/202/200 ? will cost more than 272/250....

So in my opinion 272/250 is a better starting position

Almost 90% of the forum talk is beyond the wildest dreams of many sane people.... 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve not done the comparisons but have spoken to two dealers who I trust who have - one said that the Nova was a lot better than the SU, and the other said that the 272/250 was a lot better than the Nova/250. But yes, if I had an SU/250 that I was happy with, I’d be inclined to wait and see what’s around the corner. 

Simon made a point above about Naim thinking that one or two of the things they have done may have been a mistake in hindsight, which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement, especially given that the 172 has gone and the 272 is now the only streaming preamp. I’d love to be able to get a better streaming preamp, and certainly won’t be going from four to six boxes. A little while ago I thought the end was nigh for the 202, 282 and 252 and that a wider range of streaming preamps would take their place. Now I’m not so sure. Interesting times. 

I don't think Naim regard the 272 as a mistake though, but the unloved 172 is the one that is no more made by Naim. Same for the XS separat preamp and power amp.

the 272 is an introduction to the classic series (albeit an expensive one)  - buy the 272, and then soon enough an XPS and maybe and PS555DR will follow.... and for very good musical and sonic benefits

Alba1320 posted:

Eloise posted:

... Did those who bought CDS players get opportunity to upgrade to CDS2?  

FWIW, yes, they did. 

Paul Quigley ie posted:

Naim did offer an upgrade from CDS1 to CDS2 at a very attractive price for a short time.

I sit corrected...

I really hope that there will be a 372 sometime as an sideways upgrade for 252 users. With Ndac controlling all my digital sources, and  absolutely no plans to go back to a tuner or invest in a record player, the 252 is analogue overkill for me.

Claus

Hungryhalibut posted:

which got me thinking whether the 272 might be one of them. Not in terms of quality, because in my view the 272 performs way above its price point, but in terms of loss of sales - there must be loads of people with a 272/XPS rather than an NDX/XPS/282/HiCap, which costs a lot more. If the 272 is indeed one of the mistakes, there may not actually be a replacement

Interesting idea - I can see the logic.

On the other hand there must be quite a few people like you (I think?) and me (possibly in the future) who went for the simplicity of a one box system with the SU from a collection of boxes and were seduced back towards a considerably more expensive 3 box solution built around a 272. I really can't see myself going down a separate streamer, preamp, multiple PSUs road unless the kids leave home (freeing up a suitable separate listening room) , I retire (giving me more time for quality listening) and end up with an embarrassment of spare cash (after I've helped my kids with house deposits)! But could I justify swapping the SU for x72 and XPS? I reckon I could persuade myself  

I think it would be a little rash for Naim to think they could shepherd customers down a route they really don't want to take.

Yes, I’ve had seven boxes in the past, and dropped to one. I’d like to think that we’d get a new and better streaming preamp but the more I think about it the less I think it will happen. The other thing the 272 has brought to the Naim range is a level of confusion that didn’t exist before. NDX/202 or 272? NDX/282 or 272/XPS? NDX/SN2 or 272/200? Too much choice. I’d say scrap the 202, 282 and 252. Many others wouldn’t. But do people want six boxes in 2018 when others can deliver the same quality (though regrettably not the same sound) with two?

Naim can and do 'do it'. The 272/250 combo is two boxes, which is not unreasonable, and sounds great. I hope they replace the 272.

I'm with HH. Two boxes I'm willing to accommodate, but I'm reluctant to go to more. Four or five? Not a chance.

For me having just Had 2 faulty Novas in a row I feel I should have known better.

It's a bit like combined washing machine tumble dryers and combi boiler. Work great at there given job to a point. Generally sacrificing reliability in the case of above.

If you have the space, separates has to be a far better way to go, if not for sound purposes but for reliability purposes.