Advice on choosing Vinyl turntable

Hi guys, typing error, it should be turntable.  Sorry!

Patrick, I've edited the title for you.

Beyond that, it's a very broad remit so perhaps a bit more background and of course budget would help eek out some useful opinions.

p.s. Are you system details in your profile up to date?

Thanks, Richard.  By the way, there are three components of a vinyl turntable like cartridge, tonearm and turntable.  Which part play an important role which may affect the level of musicality and the performance of the music?  What is MM and MC?  Do I need other devices like PSU or others then connect it to the pre-amp?  

Thanks,

Patrick

Patrick

Not wishing to be rude, but you previously posed a question about the merits of the CD555 on a new thread, to which you did not return with a single response.  Will 2018 see a slightly more proactive approach?

You really do need to put a marker down in terms of budget range you would consider.  As part of your budgeting, in addition to the items mentioned, you would also need to include provision for a phono stage amplifier (links between record player and pre-amp) and lp's.  MM = Moving Magnet;  MC = Moving Coil; the latter tending to be more expensive.

Peter

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your reply and information.  CD555 would not be my choice in 2018 after I listened the vinyl in my friend's home.  Regarding the budget, I am willing to spend around 8,500(sterling) to purchase a full set of vinyl turntable (including all necessary devices).  Do you have any good suggestions?  I think my budget spent on vinyl turntable is half of CD555.

Thanks,

Patrick

Do you have a dealer in the neighbourhood who could help? For £8.5k you could get a Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace with space arm and a Lyra MC cartridge. Couple that with a phono stage such as an EAR 834 and you are good to go. Other tables such as the SME 15 and those from Rega and Well-Tempered are alternatives. The TRON and Trilogy phono stages are also well thought of.

You should choose after a side by side demonstration. I would suggest budgeting  4k on the table, 1.5k on the arm, 1.5k on the phono stage and 1k on the cartridge. And get a record cleaning machine too.

Patrick

This is a bit of a cop out response - I too have a cds-3 cd player and I found that an lp12 turntable provided a great synergy in sound presentation.  Mine has been upgraded over the years however, you don't need to start with a maxed out spec to enjoy a great and complimentary sound.   My cop out is to suggest if you are within reach of Cymbiosis to pay them a visit.  They have a vast range of lp12's set up and ready to listen to; and they also stock rega and dps turntables which should provide you with a reasonable spectrum of choice from one of the top lp12 experts in the UK.  I'm sure there are plenty of other dealers, this one I can recommend from experience.  You will also want to include budget provision for an interconnect of similar quality to the one you are using for your cds-3.

Peter

Don’t forget some of your budget to go vinyl shopping otherwise you’ll just have a very expensive ornament. I would take £1000 from that budget and go record shopping. 

OMG how I would love to go on a thousand pound record shopping trip!!

Patrick,

thanks.  In fact there are at least four parts if you count the phono stage as well. Anyway, you have a lot of potential candidates for your £8.5k, particularly in HK.  

Generally the hierarchy goes, Turntable, Arm, cartridge, phono stage, although it's critical to ensure that the Turntable, arm and cartridge are designed to work well with each other.  The easiset way to achieve this to go for a package.  For example, I recently brought home the flagship Rega turntable, the RP10 which comes with its own reference power supply, the RB2000 arm, and the Apheta 2 MC cartridge.  All of these parts are designed to work at their best with each other (OK, there's the Aphelion cartridge as the next step up, but you get the idea) and I have to say - they do! So, for under £4k (£5k with the Aphelion), you have a superb record player that is easy to set up, and easy to get the best from, and in performance terms is up there with the very best.

It's just one recommendation, and also leaves the rest of your budget for upgrading the pre-amp and maybe also the power amp, and also for a decent phono stage such as the Superline.  So that's just one option.  Plenty of others, but I would suggest you take your time, try to get to hear some decks and examine the options within your budget.  The upgrade of your NAC122x and NAP150x should not be ignored, so bear that in mind (and budget) too.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for your useful information and advice.  Well, Rega is one of the brands that on my list as I heard much positive comments from my friends who are existing users.  Besides, as the golden rule in Naim, "Source comes first" and I always follow this rule in setting up my system.   I don't mind spending much funds in source like CDS3 but I have some hesitations on spending much funds on pre and power amps as the listening area of my home is not large enough.  I will take a look and have a listen of the Rega turntable in the showroom.  

Thanks,

Patrick

To put in context, what was the system in which you compared CD555 and vinyl replay? (Or at least decided latter was better if not a direct comparison.)

As BtB noted, you need to factor in vinyl purchase if you don’t already have a collection. Although this is not answering the question, the fact that you considered upgrading your CD player prompts an alternative thought:  Presumably having an SI you already have a NAS or other music store and digital files. Have you considered replacing CD with streaming, which has the potential for better quality than CD? Your budget is almost enough for a top flight system, e.g Naim NDS or Chord Dave plus a renderer, with potential for sale of your CD player to fund any extra needed, or to improve the store if necessary.

Hi Patrick,

you pose an interesting question there! I have owned a number of makes of good turntable and auditioned many more. Each has its own advocates. They do sound different and you will have a preference, once you hear them, so auditioning is the way to go.

The one unwavering truth that I’ve learned is to find a really good dealer whom you trust, then stick with them. A good TT is a finely tuned mechanical measurement system, so set up is especially important. Most dealers seem to miss this point!

I have found the Vertere and Roksan turntables to sound fairly close to what a Naim CDS3 does well. Having said that, a Rega RP10 with Alpheta 2 or Aphelion cartridge and a Rega Aria phono stage would be my recommended benchmark for you. The Linn LP12 is wonderful (I’ve owned 2), Nottingham Analogue, SME, WTA, Avid and Michell all have their followers.

But find a good dealer first. Hope this helps, FT

Hi FT,

Thanks for your experienced advice and I absolutely concur to what you said that "each has its own advocates." and "audition is the best way to differentiate which one suits me most."  Actually, I am targeting for a turntable which can beat against my CDS3 and increase my level of enjoyment in terms of musicality.  By the way, my friend suggests me to have an audition of "Brinkmann - Bardo."  Do you have any ideas and comments on this turntable?

Thanks,

Patrick

It is a well respected table, but I have not auditioned one.

Hi Patrick,

I have only heard good things about the Brinkmann Bardo but I have not heard one myself, so am unqualified to comment.  I happen to have a soft spot for the Bauer Audio DPS turntable (especially with a Naim Aro!), though I didn't end up owning one.

Cards on the table time, you can get a Vertere MG-1 TT + SG-1 arm, a decent cartridge and the Vertere phono stage for under £8k.  This will do everything that a CDS3 does so well with a "similar" yet better sound.  It will be incredibly hard to beat for the money as a new TT combination. 

The Rega RP10 would still be my recommended benchmark for you though, as it costs considerably less and would leave you with funds for a more capable & revealing pre-amp.

The Linn LP12 is a scratch that should be itched, otherwise you would always wonder, "what if?"

But a bad dealer can screw up the installation of any of these fine turntables for you.  Hence my overall recommendation to find a dealer that really knows TTs and in whom you can place your trust.

Happy auditioning, FT

Hi FT, 

Your recommended choice of RP10 is on my list as my testing sample of vinyl replay.  If the performance of RP10 is fine, then, I will consider to spend much funds on a higher level of vinyl turntable like Brinkmann - Bardo.  RP10 will move to my bedroom and connect it to my Unit 1.   By the way, if I do so, do I need a "Stageline" or "Superline"?

Kindly advise.

Thanks,

Patrick

Hi FT,

I am currently using Rega RS 1 as my bedroom speakers which was driven by Uniti 1 and the performance makes me feel satisfactorily. Therefore, I have full confidence in Rega's products.

Thanks,

Patrick

Hi Patrick,

If you opt for a Rega RP10, then I would see 2 choices for you in terms of phono stage:

1) buy a Rega Aria and don't worry about alternatives
2) try a number of the alternatives (I've heard quite a few), then buy the Rega Aria

Rega really do try to make it simple for us.

If you go for a Brinkmann TT, then the choice of phono stage critically depends on the cartridge that you pair with it.  If you buy a Dynavector cartridge, then just buy a Dynavector P75 phono stage, knowing that it is brilliant and brilliant value.  Otherwise, you really need a good dealer to guide you through the minefield of 5 star rated phono stages, most of which I found to be severely underwhelming. 

I would not automatically jump to a Naim phono stage.  I found the Superline to be mindblowingly good when equipped with exactly the right z foil airplug resistor (25 Ohms matters here) and a SupercapDR, but that makes it a £7k phono stage.  I was not wowed by the Superline with any other power supply option, including my (recently serviced) olive supercap.

Best regards, FT

I've heard the Brinkmann Bardo on a few occasions, albeit under show conditions and not within any system that I'm familiar with. It looks nicely finished and seemed to work well but hard to judge the sound. However, once you have added a suitable arm and cartridge, that's pretty much all your budget used up and you will still need a phono stage of commensurate quality and likely a better pre-amp too.

Regarding your question of a Stageline or Superline, if you decide to try the RP10 with either an Apheta 2 or Aphelion then I would suggest pairing with either the Rega Aria phono stage, or, if you can afford it, the Superline with a Hicap power supply.

I am just starting with vinyl too, Patrick.  The first thing I would say is take it slow!  I strongly recommend getting a starter table - a Project or Rega Planar 1 or 2 to get familiar with how the things work and feel in use.  Setting up a basic turntable on your own - even if they are mostly plug and play - is a great exercise.  You can explore the basic adjustments available without fear.  You don't want to practice on an expensive piece of equipment -  which tend to be more fragile and fussy - not less.  And you'll catch on to whether your turntable is working as it should.  The routine of putting on a record may also require you to consciously slow things down - if you lack patience it's all too easy to scratch a record, damage the tonearm, bend the needle etc.  Being used to switching out CDs with one disc in each hand, the slow process of changing records is still a test of patience for me.  Basic turntables will obviously not match a good digital setup, but will still be enjoyable.  Cleaning records is whole other world of hurt and also requires some research and investment.      

I've heard a Vertere TT several times but not in known facilities

Very good it was,, nobody wanted to leave the room.

As for RP10 do notice a few owners actually preferred the RP8.

I have heard the #8 and it was great but never heard a #10

You budget is very high and hope your amp and speakers are similar classified ?

His 122 has a hicap. I used to power a superline from AUX2 of a 282 that was powered by a 1/2 a flatcap 2x and it comfortably beat my iso. How much will a 122 get in the way? That would leave plenty of scope to upgrade the phonostage with power supplies in future without having to sell on a used phonostage. It will tie you in to a low output MC ie below 0.5mV rather than equal to it but that’s no great hardship. 

Clearaudio also seems to make some very well engineered turntables. I have an LP12 which I love but accept that servicing and regular fettling could be off-putting for some.

You should audition the VPI Prime with its 3D unipivot arm