Naim Hi line vs Chord Sarum T

Huge posted:

(I and another use also found W2549 better than the standard unscreened Naim cable, but I find W2497 better still).

NB:  not overlooking the application,  W2497 is a single core coax & screen,  W2549 is a balanced pair & screen   

Mike-B posted:

Huge posted:

(I and another use also found W2549 better than the standard unscreened Naim cable, but I find W2497 better still).

NB:  not overlooking the application,  W2497 is a single core coax & screen,  W2549 is a balanced pair & screen   

Correct.  Tony uses 3x NAP500s, so only needs mono cables.

(Technically it's dual concentric coaxial, rather than single core, i.e. it doesn't actually have a conductive 'core'.
But it's definitely not twinax.)

Huge posted:

tonym posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

I've also found that changing a single Naim cable, whether the Standard din/XLR OR naca5, probably accounts for the mixed reviews on this forum, once out of the standard NAIM cables, well then results are variable and unpredictable some forum members who report Superlumina isn't for them, actually use home made DIN/XLR cables made out of Mogami.

Come on analogmusic, give it a rest. I guess by "some members" you mean me. Yes, I use Mogami W2549 Neglex OFC cable instead of the standard Naim offering of standard 3-core 3amp mains cable with the earth wire cut off at the ends for my six DIN to XLR leads. It sounds considerably better. Will reverting to the standard leads somehow magically transform the phono to DIN SL interconnect I tried into sounding any good against my Chord SuperSarum ? No, it won't.

Tony, you should try Mogami W2497, in my opinion it's a considerable upgrade on the W2549.

(I and another use also found W2549 better than the standard unscreened Naim cable, but I find W2497 better still).

Aye Huge, I do mean to get round to this. When the time comes I'll seek your advice over how best to configure it.

analogmusic posted:

This also applies to the power cables. Once outside the naim cables anything may sound good but of course that’s all subjective and down to taste and how much one misses or not the naim intended performance.

 

Wouldn't your analogy also apply to speakers? If you use speakers that are non Naim, does your system represent the Naim intended performance? According to you, probably not!

No, it doesn’t apply to speakers or streamers or DACs... oh, and Vertere cables, you can use Vertere cables as well because they’re true to Naim’s intended performance. 

I think NIP is about to replace PRaT as the Naim acronym of choice.

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

This also applies to the power cables. Once outside the naim cables anything may sound good but of course that’s all subjective and down to taste and how much one misses or not the naim intended performance.

 

Wouldn't your analogy also apply to speakers? If you use speakers that are non Naim, does your system represent the Naim intended performance? According to you, probably not!

well I think that is true....The best Naim performance does come from an all Naim system.

Which is why Naim made their own speakers, and the SL2 is very sought after still till today.

I thought about SBL... and Allaes... not easy to get those outside UK?

AND... besides.... Naim don't make speakers anymore. They were rather unique and built unlike many other "conventional" speakers

Dave J posted:

No, it doesn’t apply to speakers or streamers or DACs... oh, and Vertere cables, you can use Vertere cables as well because they’re true to Naim’s intended performance. 

well the chord digital cables do work rather well, have to admit. Including the ethernet ones. I'm quite puzzled by the ethernet one actually, why it would or should make any difference at all, but it's clearly audible and in a very night and day way too. And it isn't about shielding or less noise either since the buffer of the streamer kept playing when I removed the cable. No it was actually about the data that filled the streamer's buffer. It was so much better with the Chord Ethernet cable ! More musical, more clarity, just simply so much more enjoyable.

But I would need to hear the vertere ones too , and the famous audio quest DBS diamond cable too.

analogmusic posted:

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

This also applies to the power cables. Once outside the naim cables anything may sound good but of course that’s all subjective and down to taste and how much one misses or not the naim intended performance.

 

Wouldn't your analogy also apply to speakers? If you use speakers that are non Naim, does your system represent the Naim intended performance? According to you, probably not!

well I think that is true....The best Naim performance does come from an all Naim system.

Which is why Naim made their own speakers, and the SL2 is very sought after still till today.

I thought about SBL... and Allaes... not easy to get those outside UK?

AND... besides.... Naim don't make speakers anymore. They were rather unique and built unlike many other "conventional" speakers

SL2's were NEVER very sought after, they were in production for a few years and sales were dismal at best. Something like less than 400 pairs were made. I believe internet hype has more to do with their so called popularity now than any real sonic qualities or advantages over "conventional" speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers, but they definitely are not the pinnacle of speaker design as some here would have you believe. That opinion is based on hearing them at my Naim dealer who decided not to carry them because of their performance when compared to the other "conventional" speakers he was also selling. 

Whenever they come up for sale on the used market sites today in the US, they still have a hard time selling. 

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

This also applies to the power cables. Once outside the naim cables anything may sound good but of course that’s all subjective and down to taste and how much one misses or not the naim intended performance.

 

Wouldn't your analogy also apply to speakers? If you use speakers that are non Naim, does your system represent the Naim intended performance? According to you, probably not!

well I think that is true....The best Naim performance does come from an all Naim system.

Which is why Naim made their own speakers, and the SL2 is very sought after still till today.

I thought about SBL... and Allaes... not easy to get those outside UK?

AND... besides.... Naim don't make speakers anymore. They were rather unique and built unlike many other "conventional" speakers

SL2's were NEVER very sought after, they were in production for a few years and sales were dismal at best. 

Whenever they come up for sale on the used market sites today in the US, they still have a hard time selling. 

Well, I sought very hard after SL2s and after many years finally found a s/h pair. They can be used in active operation, have some unique design features, like the separately mounted tweeter, which make them sound very open, and can be placed near the wall. It's difficult to find another speaker with the same feature set.

Am I hallucinating or this started out  as a Hi line x chord thread?

badlands posted:

SL2's were NEVER very sought after, they were in production for a few years and sales were dismal at best. Something like less than 400 pairs were made. I believe internet hype has more to do with their so called popularity now than any real sonic qualities or advantages over "conventional" speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers, but they definitely are not the pinnacle of speaker design as some here would have you believe. That opinion is based on hearing them at my Naim dealer who decided not to carry them because of their performance when compared to the other "conventional" speakers he was also selling. 

 

Were I to be cynical, I might suggest that the reason your Naim dealer didn't carry SL2s was more to do with the relative complexities of setting them up correctly than with their sonic qualities. Some dealers would rather push "plonk and Play" boxes than have the nuisance. Allegedly.

By any measure, a pair of well set up SL2s are superb speakers, as befits the sophistication of their design. 

tonym posted:

badlands posted:

SL2's were NEVER very sought after, they were in production for a few years and sales were dismal at best. Something like less than 400 pairs were made. I believe internet hype has more to do with their so called popularity now than any real sonic qualities or advantages over "conventional" speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers, but they definitely are not the pinnacle of speaker design as some here would have you believe. That opinion is based on hearing them at my Naim dealer who decided not to carry them because of their performance when compared to the other "conventional" speakers he was also selling. 

 

Were I to be cynical, I might suggest that the reason your Naim dealer didn't carry SL2s was more to do with the relative complexities of setting them up correctly than with their sonic qualities. Some dealers would rather push "plonk and Play" boxes than have the nuisance. Allegedly.

By any measure, a pair of well set up SL2s are superb speakers, as befits the sophistication of their design. 

It's fine to be cynical, and everybody has the right to an opinion about their merits, whether real or fictional, but the simple fact my dealer didn't carry them was other speakers sounded better to more buyers, and most speaker buyers had little interest in them. I was told, don't honestly know it as fact, total sold was somewhere around two pairs. Which based on their sales figure worldwide, was not an uncommon opinion. As far as not having them set up correctly because the dealer was somewhat less than knowledgeable about their setup, that might be a stretch, as they are pretty well known, and have an excellent reputation for setting up Naim equipment and as being one of the premiere dealers in the states for Naim equipment.

The problem for SL2s - and indeed any of Naim's boundary designs - was that you needed not just a great deal of care and attention in the set up, but also the room to allow them to work properly.  They didn't demo or sell well in the States mainly because they didn't work well with the way that most rooms were constructed, i.e.wooden suspended floor and cavity walls.  With the help and perseverance of Chris Koster and Chris West, a few dealers tried valiantly - there was even an unofficial mod using Allae pips that turned it into a reflex speaker in an attempt to try to give some bass when used in free space - but it was pretty much in vain. They were the wrong speaker for most of North America - you wanted a free space design. But, in your average UK living room, with solid walls and floor, they could be fantastic, as many on here will attest.

Richard Dane posted:

The problem for SL2s - and indeed any of Naim's boundary designs - was that you needed not just a great deal of care and attention in the set up, but also the room to allow them to work properly.  They didn't demo or sell well in the States mainly because they didn't work well with the way that most rooms were constructed, i.e.wooden suspended floor and cavity walls.  A few tried valiantly - there was even an unofficial  mod using Allae pips that turned it into a reflex speaker in an attempt to try to give some bass when used in free space - but it was pretty much in vain. They were the wrong speaker for most of North America - you wanted a free space design. But, in your average UK living room, with solid walls and floor, they could be fantastic, as many on here will attest.

Not being biased Richard, are we?

Oh yes Tony, I am biased when it come to SL2s. I have expressed my admiration for their design on this forum on a number of occasions and I choose to use them at home, so how could I not be?

However, they didn't sell well in the States.  I just stated the reason why.  And that's a fact.

P.s. apologies to the OP - we seem to have taken a bit of a detour on this thread.

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

This also applies to the power cables. Once outside the naim cables anything may sound good but of course that’s all subjective and down to taste and how much one misses or not the naim intended performance.

 

Wouldn't your analogy also apply to speakers? If you use speakers that are non Naim, does your system represent the Naim intended performance? According to you, probably not!

well I think that is true....The best Naim performance does come from an all Naim system.

Which is why Naim made their own speakers, and the SL2 is very sought after still till today.

I thought about SBL... and Allaes... not easy to get those outside UK?

AND... besides.... Naim don't make speakers anymore. They were rather unique and built unlike many other "conventional" speakers

SL2's were NEVER very sought after, they were in production for a few years and sales were dismal at best. Something like less than 400 pairs were made. I believe internet hype has more to do with their so called popularity now than any real sonic qualities or advantages over "conventional" speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers, but they definitely are not the pinnacle of speaker design as some here would have you believe. That opinion is based on hearing them at my Naim dealer who decided not to carry them because of their performance when compared to the other "conventional" speakers he was also selling. 

Whenever they come up for sale on the used market sites today in the US, they still have a hard time selling. 

If memory serve SL2 were launched with nearly double pricing as its predecessor SBL

This along the fact they were not mainstream (ported, non biwire & needed placement) presumably they would not sell well

Many wanted plunk and play speakers and many didn't have the patience SBL required for correct setting up

Guess people just looked elsewhere

Nevertheless SL2 was iconic speakers and mint samples will keep good value due to limited supply.

So there you have it, buy the Sarum T 

Perol posted:

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

badlands posted:

analogmusic posted:

This also applies to the power cables. Once outside the naim cables anything may sound good but of course that’s all subjective and down to taste and how much one misses or not the naim intended performance.

 

Wouldn't your analogy also apply to speakers? If you use speakers that are non Naim, does your system represent the Naim intended performance? According to you, probably not!

well I think that is true....The best Naim performance does come from an all Naim system.

Which is why Naim made their own speakers, and the SL2 is very sought after still till today.

I thought about SBL... and Allaes... not easy to get those outside UK?

AND... besides.... Naim don't make speakers anymore. They were rather unique and built unlike many other "conventional" speakers

SL2's were NEVER very sought after, they were in production for a few years and sales were dismal at best. Something like less than 400 pairs were made. I believe internet hype has more to do with their so called popularity now than any real sonic qualities or advantages over "conventional" speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers, but they definitely are not the pinnacle of speaker design as some here would have you believe. That opinion is based on hearing them at my Naim dealer who decided not to carry them because of their performance when compared to the other "conventional" speakers he was also selling. 

Whenever they come up for sale on the used market sites today in the US, they still have a hard time selling. 

If memory serve SL2 were launched with nearly double pricing as its predecessor SBL

This along the fact they were not mainstream (ported, non biwire & needed placement) presumably they would not sell well

Many wanted plunk and play speakers and many didn't have the patience SBL required for correct setting up

Guess people just looked elsewhere

Nevertheless SL2 was iconic speakers and mint samples will keep good value due to limited supply.

I did off course meant biwire

Personally I would expect RCA-RCA to sound inferio to DIN-DIN interconnects between a NDS and 252. Regarding Sarum T vs. Hiline I would audition before purchasing, and also listen to Super Lumina before committing to Sarum T if that is you preferenece over Hiline.

Regarding the side discussion: I have a hard time imagine that some other company than Naim make products that sound more like what Naim intended than Naim did when they developed them. I am also convinced that competition follows what Naim does and Naim what they do, and that Naim’s intentions with new developments is a mix of what is happening on the market and how that can be incorporated in their “design philosophy”. So, even if the intention is achived during development, with time it’s unlikely that it will not be improved upon by Naim or others.

That said SL Din interconnects are the best Din IC I have heard in my system. SL2’s are among the best speakers I have heard and by far among  the most intentional speaker design I have encountered.

Joppe posted:

Personally I would expect RCA-RCA to sound inferio to DIN-DIN interconnects between a NDS and 252. Regarding Sarum T vs. Hiline I would audition before purchasing, and also listen to Super Lumina before committing to Sarum T if that is you preferenece over Hiline.

Regarding the side discussion: I have a hard time imagine that some other company than Naim make products that sound more like what Naim intended than Naim did when they developed them. I am also convinced that competition follows what Naim does and Naim what they do, and that Naim’s intentions with new developments is a mix of what is happening on the market and how that can be incorporated in their “design philosophy”. So, even if the intention is achived during development, with time it’s unlikely that it will not be improved upon by Naim or others.

That said SL Din interconnects are the best Din IC I have heard in my system. SL2’s are among the best speakers I have heard and by far among  the most intentional speaker design I have encountered.

We seem to be back to NIP ('Naim Intended Performance') again.  Surely Naim's intention is to reproduce music as accurately as  possible.

Perhaps someone could explain whether standard, Hi-Line or SL represent Naim’s Intended Performance? I’m assuming that it’s SL and that the others are now non-NIP, is that correct? Actually, are there levels of NIP, nippiness perhaps? And if that is the case, were the early Chord cables - specifically designed for Naim - NIP-ish or, at least, on the NIP spectrum?

I assume all hifi manufacturers strive towards their version of as accurately reproduced music as possible. Naim I assume do it with their ideas how that is best acheived at a certain cost within their development and production competence and constraints. The consumer may or may not agree of the results, but I don’t see why Naim would develop kit with any other objective than to the best of their ability represent their best offer towards this goal and thus by default represent their intentions. 

Just get the one that sounds best to your ears. If it's possible, strip off the logo from the cables (Naim, Chord, Superlumina or Super Taylon whatever) and judge based on the sound, not the brand or logo. In other words, disregard the brand or marking that's stamped on the product. 

I got to hear SL2's years ago in London.  The room was brick/concrete, not terribly big.  System was 555/552/500.  The SL2's sounded like mini-DBLs.  Incredible design in the right room.