Naim Hi line vs Chord Sarum T

Chris Bell posted:

I got to hear SL2's years ago in London.  The room was brick/concrete, not terribly big.  System was 555/552/500.  The SL2's sounded like mini-DBLs.  Incredible design in the right room.   

I thought this was a cable thread? I was dying to say that.

Dave J posted:

Perhaps someone could explain whether standard, Hi-Line or SL represent Naim’s Intended Performance? I’m assuming that it’s SL and that the others are now non-NIP, is that correct? Actually, are there levels of NIP, nippiness perhaps? And if that is the case, were the early Chord cables - specifically designed for Naim - NIP-ish or, at least, on the NIP spectrum?

 The answers to your many questions are on the chord website itself.

The technical expertise came from Naim itself, and Naim remain the technical experts on their own products and what is the Naim intended performance.

You like your Chord cables, and that's perfectly fine. But please, please, please stop posting that the Superlumina cables are inferior to your Chord cables. 

Naim are generous and kind to still say Chord cables work well with their products, and Chord also say, please don't buy our cables outright, listen to them, borrow them from a dealer, and then only part with money.

I think it's important to be cautious and listen carefully, so that financial losses like the one described earlier (Patrik's experience) can be avoided by overseas buyers.

I got a few chord cables and think the digital ones are really outstanding by the way.

The Chord Company was formed in 1984. It all started over dinner one night in Salisbury, when a group of visiting Naim Audio USA retailers asked Naim Audio UK for a good-quality DIN-to-RCA interconnect.  At the table, was one Sally Gibb, then married to a Naim Audio executive, who made the (historic) suggestion that she make the cables and start a business. With the blessing of Naim Audio, the journey to make cables for America began.

With USA referring to cables as ‘cords’, the name The Chord Company, with its obvious musical connotations, seemed perfect and it quickly stuck. Sally drew a logo, designed the packaging and started testing prototypes. Completely British design and construction, although difficult to source at the time, was paramount and days of searching eventually led to suppliers of sufficient quality. Friends at Naim Audio provided expertise and advice, with many of them helping to build the cables.

ryder. posted:

Just get the one that sounds best to your ears. If it's possible, strip off the logo from the cables (Naim, Chord, Superlumina or Super Taylon whatever) and judge based on the sound, not the brand or logo. In other words, disregard the brand or marking that's stamped on the product. 

It doesn't work like that unfortunately.

a cable may indeed sound very good, but one puts the original Naim cable back, then sometimes (but not always), one realises that a good sound, is different from the original performance of the equipment.

The standard DIN/XLR cables are really part of the design and performance of the NAP 500/300/250.2. 

Joppe posted:

I assume all hifi manufacturers strive towards their version of as accurately reproduced music as possible. Naim I assume do it with their ideas how that is best acheived at a certain cost within their development and production competence and constraints. The consumer may or may not agree of the results, but I don’t see why Naim would develop kit with any other objective than to the best of their ability represent their best offer towards this goal and thus by default represent their intentions. 

I sort of agree with this but am still slightly uncomfortable with the concept of Naim's ideas and intentions.

Ultimately every piece of equipment (box, cable, equipment rack) as well as our listening room, electrical supply and sadly our ears compromise musical accuracy to a greater or lesser degree.  Even things like our mood and room temperature will do so too.  Better equipment will introduce less compromise.  Within that general context individual manufactures like Naim may then have views on individual aspects of musical accuracy that they will prioritise and aim to compromise less on than others.  For me this is where the concept of NIP starts and ends.

Within any reasonably matched system musical accuracy in my opinion is roughly 90% determined by the quality of the product and 10% by synergy with other equipment, perhaps 80:20 at most.  But certainly not 50:50 or 10:90 which seems to be what some are suggesting.  So I believe a better designed cable will sound better every time unless the improved design is only marginal in which case the smaller synergy contribution could have different results within a particular system.  A good quality cable will preserve the aspects of musical accuracy that Naim equipment has prioritised.

i should add that musical accuracy is also determined by the quality of the recording.  I'm willing to speculate that playing MP3 128kbps from my iPhone into a Statement will not be musical nirvana, even if I use an Apple lead to obtain the Apple intended sound!

analogmusic posted:

Dave J posted:

Perhaps someone could explain whether standard, Hi-Line or SL represent Naim’s Intended Performance? I’m assuming that it’s SL and that the others are now non-NIP, is that correct? Actually, are there levels of NIP, nippiness perhaps? And if that is the case, were the early Chord cables - specifically designed for Naim - NIP-ish or, at least, on the NIP spectrum?

 You like your Chord cables, and that's perfectly fine. But please, please, please stop posting that the Superlumina cables are inferior to your Chord cables. 

Naim are generous and kind to still say Chord cables work well with their products.

 

There's only one individual I've read who repeatedly posts that one manufacturer's high end cables are inferior to another's (within a Naim system) and it's not Dave J and neither are Superlumina the claimed inferior cables.

And do Naim's comments surely not imply that they believe Chord cables do a good job of preserving NIP?

The Chord Company can "rebuild" the RCA-RCA Sarum to Din-Din - so if the price is right, you'll be able to afford that rebuild as well

Bryce Curdy posted:

analogmusic posted:

Dave J posted:

Perhaps someone could explain whether standard, Hi-Line or SL represent Naim’s Intended Performance? I’m assuming that it’s SL and that the others are now non-NIP, is that correct? Actually, are there levels of NIP, nippiness perhaps? And if that is the case, were the early Chord cables - specifically designed for Naim - NIP-ish or, at least, on the NIP spectrum?

 You like your Chord cables, and that's perfectly fine. But please, please, please stop posting that the Superlumina cables are inferior to your Chord cables. 

Naim are generous and kind to still say Chord cables work well with their products.

 

There's only one individual I've read who repeatedly posts that one manufacturer's high end cables are inferior to another's (within a Naim system) and it's not Dave J and neither are Superlumina the claimed inferior cables.

And do Naim's comments surely not imply that they believe Chord cables do a good job of preserving NIP?

the proof is in the pudding - or in this case the listening.

with so many combinations of sources and speakers, it (timing) is a tricky thing and all down to perception.

analogmusic posted:

ryder. posted:

Just get the one that sounds best to your ears. If it's possible, strip off the logo from the cables (Naim, Chord, Superlumina or Super Taylon whatever) and judge based on the sound, not the brand or logo. In other words, disregard the brand or marking that's stamped on the product. 

It doesn't work like that unfortunately.

a cable may indeed sound very good, but one puts the original Naim cable back, then sometimes (but not always), one realises that a good sound, is different from the original performance of the equipment.

The standard DIN/XLR cables are really part of the design and performance of the NAP 500/300/250.2. 

 

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

If it sounds better it IS better.  I don't want a 'Chord sound' or a 'Naim sound' anymore than I want a 'Bush sound'.  I simply want the most musically accurate and enjoyable sound.

What is 'the original performance of the equipment'?  Is it performance with standard Naim leads?  But then you clearly believe that Super Lumina and PowerLine are better at preserving this.

Why can you not accept the possibility that another manufacturer could design a cable that is better still.

It's all part of the ongoing debate - like the 282 vs 252 one.....  maybe can never be resolved

Bryce Curdy posted:

 

 

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

If it sounds better it IS better.  I don't want a 'Chord sound' or a 'Naim sound' anymore than I want a 'Bush sound'.  I simply want the most musically accurate and enjoyable sound.

What is 'the original performance of the equipment'?  Is it performance with standard Naim leads?  But then you clearly believe that Super Lumina and PowerLine are better at preserving this.

Why can you not accept the possibility that another manufacturer could design a cable that is better still.

Yes, it's that simple. I think it's fair to say most folk on this forum have owned Naim equipment for a fair while and are therefore experienced users who happen to like the sound Naim kit makes. Are we really that stupid that we don't know when an addition to our systems results in less good sound? It's pretty insulting to be told we don't know what constitutes an improved sound quality.

everyone is entitled to their opinion, indeed as you told Rob Watts that your QBD76 sounded better than his much more advanced Chord Dave 

Cables at 2000 GBP/meter will be subjected to much scrutiny and debate, a lot of critical comments and much discussion.

analogmusic posted:

Joerand thinks the powerline is the epitome of the EQ effect

Just a minute here AM. You stated recently you'd 'blocked' me; no further replies, etc. If that's the case I take umbrage to you referencing me in your responses. I was happy to be cited as meriting your blocked list, but now it seems you're having it both ways. At the very least, be consistent with your forum responses.

tonym posted:

Bryce Curdy posted:

 

 

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

If it sounds better it IS better.  I don't want a 'Chord sound' or a 'Naim sound' anymore than I want a 'Bush sound'.  I simply want the most musically accurate and enjoyable sound.

What is 'the original performance of the equipment'?  Is it performance with standard Naim leads?  But then you clearly believe that Super Lumina and PowerLine are better at preserving this.

Why can you not accept the possibility that another manufacturer could design a cable that is better still.

Yes, it's that simple. I think it's fair to say most folk on this forum have owned Naim equipment for a fair while and are therefore experienced users who happen to like the sound Naim kit makes. Are we really that stupid that we don't know when an addition to our systems results in less good sound? It's pretty insulting to be told we don't know what constitutes an improved sound quality.

You're not following this debate at all.  Analogmusic is pretty much stating that Naim cables must sound better simply because they are manufactured by Naim and Naim know best.

And for the record I have owned Naim equipment for over 23 years.  AND if I didn't 'like the sound Naim kit makes' I wouldn't have nine Naim boxes in my house including two 500 series products.  I'm just open to the possibility that another manufacturer might have a product that sounds better.

analogmusic posted:

 But please, please, please stop posting that the Superlumina cables are inferior to your Chord cables.  

Surely it’s not a matter of one being inferior to another? They are just different, and different people prefer different things. The ‘better’ that people use simply means that they prefer one thing and therefore it’s better to them. 

I’ve got a more Naimy system than most people, with the electronics, speakers and cables all from Naim. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest that others may prefer my system if they changed some of the wires, and I certainly wouldn’t have the temerity to tell them what they can and cannot say.

my opinion : the debate on NIP - Naim intended performance is an important one, and as a concept, I think it's a very valid one to continue discussing.

nothing personal, nothing offensive meant to anyone, just a discussion of what these expensive cables should or should not do. 

What I understand from NIP is the preservation of that magical, elusive and seductive (and part of the seduction which made some of us spent TONS of money) - TIMING 

analogmusic posted:

Dave J posted:

Perhaps someone could explain whether standard, Hi-Line or SL represent Naim’s Intended Performance? I’m assuming that it’s SL and that the others are now non-NIP, is that correct? Actually, are there levels of NIP, nippiness perhaps? And if that is the case, were the early Chord cables - specifically designed for Naim - NIP-ish or, at least, on the NIP spectrum?

 The answers to your many questions are on the chord website itself.

The technical expertise came from Naim itself, and Naim remain the technical experts on their own products and what is the Naim intended performance.

You like your Chord cables, and that's perfectly fine. But please, please, please stop posting that the Superlumina cables are inferior to your Chord cables. 

Naim are generous and kind to still say Chord cables work well with their products, and Chord also say, please don't buy our cables outright, listen to them, borrow them from a dealer, and then only part with money.

I think it's important to be cautious and listen carefully, so that financial losses like the one described earlier (Patrik's experience) can be avoided by overseas buyers.

I got a few chord cables and think the digital ones are really outstanding by the way.

The Chord Company was formed in 1984. It all started over dinner one night in Salisbury, when a group of visiting Naim Audio USA retailers asked Naim Audio UK for a good-quality DIN-to-RCA interconnect.  At the table, was one Sally Gibb, then married to a Naim Audio executive, who made the (historic) suggestion that she make the cables and start a business. With the blessing of Naim Audio, the journey to make cables for America began.

With USA referring to cables as ‘cords’, the name The Chord Company, with its obvious musical connotations, seemed perfect and it quickly stuck. Sally drew a logo, designed the packaging and started testing prototypes. Completely British design and construction, although difficult to source at the time, was paramount and days of searching eventually led to suppliers of sufficient quality. Friends at Naim Audio provided expertise and advice, with many of them helping to build the cables.

 

It appears that my little attempt at humour swerved its way past you... However, if they had been genuine questions, your reference to the Chord website doesn't answer all of them them, but thanks for trying. 

But I guess the real reason for your post was to try to shut me up. Which, I'm sorry to say it isn't going to happen as long as people are inviting discussion on topics on which I have some direct personal experience. As we've already covered, there's rather too much uninformed, speculative drivel posted by way of "fact" in order to try to persuade the genuinely interested to toe the line. As an enthusiastic Naim owner for almost 40 years, I feel duty-bound to contribute. After all, it's about informed debate not dogma.

Anyway, I'm very pleased that you're happy with your digital cables. 

Not at all trying to silence you Dave J.

its a debate ... and all sides welcome to post their contributions...

I’m trying to make a case for naim cables. There’s just not enough of it.

And I like what they do very much indeed ... in terms of preserving those rhythms...

Bryce Curdy posted:

tonym posted:

Bryce Curdy posted:

 

 

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

If it sounds better it IS better.  I don't want a 'Chord sound' or a 'Naim sound' anymore than I want a 'Bush sound'.  I simply want the most musically accurate and enjoyable sound.

What is 'the original performance of the equipment'?  Is it performance with standard Naim leads?  But then you clearly believe that Super Lumina and PowerLine are better at preserving this.

Why can you not accept the possibility that another manufacturer could design a cable that is better still.

Yes, it's that simple. I think it's fair to say most folk on this forum have owned Naim equipment for a fair while and are therefore experienced users who happen to like the sound Naim kit makes. Are we really that stupid that we don't know when an addition to our systems results in less good sound? It's pretty insulting to be told we don't know what constitutes an improved sound quality.

You're not following this debate at all.  Analogmusic is pretty much stating that Naim cables must sound better simply because they are manufactured by Naim and Naim know best.

And for the record I have owned Naim equipment for over 23 years.  AND if I didn't 'like the sound Naim kit makes' I wouldn't have nine Naim boxes in my house including two 500 series products.  I'm just open to the possibility that another manufacturer might have a product that sounds better.

Seems like you've misinterpreted my post Bryce. I happen to agree with you!

analogmusic posted:

ryder. posted:

Just get the one that sounds best to your ears. If it's possible, strip off the logo from the cables (Naim, Chord, Superlumina or Super Taylon whatever) and judge based on the sound, not the brand or logo. In other words, disregard the brand or marking that's stamped on the product. 

It doesn't work like that unfortunately.

a cable may indeed sound very good, but one puts the original Naim cable back, then sometimes (but not always), one realises that a good sound, is different from the original performance of the equipment.

The standard DIN/XLR cables are really part of the design and performance of the NAP 500/300/250.2. 

 

I can buy the idea of  "Naim's original performance" although there are others who may be confused and are doubtful on the legitimacy of that remark. Nevertheless, I find your statements to be a little confusing as well. Yes, "original performance" is different from "non-original performance". However, a "non-original performance" may be preferred although it's not the intended design or performance, whatever that is. Different yes. Which is better, I think this is the contentious part. 

Personally I feel all this cable talk is getting a bit silly, specifically Naim equipment shall be fitted with Naim cables only for the best intended/original performance. Yes, Naim standard (or premium) cables may be the best fit for Naim equipment but there will be people who will have a different experience (or opinion). 

 As mentioned somewhere in this thread earlier. The Naim's original performance may be lost if something that's non-Naim is brought into the chain, for example speakers or DAC/source. Heck, the room and speaker placement will have more contribution to the sound than a small cable swap. 

No, the speakers and room placement are another, separate issue. 

Yes, that is out of the topic, sorry. 

"Personally I feel all this cable talk is getting a bit silly..."

Ryder

You are not alone!!

Peter

Isn't the NIPs a loss of timing and poor swing? Quite the opposite of Naim's intentions.

tonym posted:

Bryce Curdy posted:

tonym posted:

Bryce Curdy posted:

 

 

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

If it sounds better it IS better.  I don't want a 'Chord sound' or a 'Naim sound' anymore than I want a 'Bush sound'.  I simply want the most musically accurate and enjoyable sound.

What is 'the original performance of the equipment'?  Is it performance with standard Naim leads?  But then you clearly believe that Super Lumina and PowerLine are better at preserving this.

Why can you not accept the possibility that another manufacturer could design a cable that is better still.

Yes, it's that simple. I think it's fair to say most folk on this forum have owned Naim equipment for a fair while and are therefore experienced users who happen to like the sound Naim kit makes. Are we really that stupid that we don't know when an addition to our systems results in less good sound? It's pretty insulting to be told we don't know what constitutes an improved sound quality.

You're not following this debate at all.  Analogmusic is pretty much stating that Naim cables must sound better simply because they are manufactured by Naim and Naim know best.

And for the record I have owned Naim equipment for over 23 years.  AND if I didn't 'like the sound Naim kit makes' I wouldn't have nine Naim boxes in my house including two 500 series products.  I'm just open to the possibility that another manufacturer might have a product that sounds better.

Seems like you've misinterpreted my post Bryce. I happen to agree with you!

Sincere apologies Tony.  When I read 'experienced users who happen to like the sound Naim kit makes' I assumed you were disagreeing with me.  When I read back it's clear you weren't.

anyway - I guess I'm being only a bit (!) annoying. Some people here spent many thousands on Chord cables and it must be annoying to hear my views. But then they would have made the comparisons and spent the money wisely.

and still there is the debate - like 282 vs 252 -- it shall continue....