Plastic Pollution Propaganda.

Don Atkinson posted:

Plastic Pollution Propaganda.

 

I’m sure this forum has far better, informed proposals for eliminating plastic pollution ?

Europe is already very, very clean. Every kind of plastic dumping should not happen of course, but on a global scale we spoil almost nothing. Been in Africa and India a few times and I still don't get it why people dump all their crap on the street. Someone in India has told me that it is kind of 'social' to give others a job to clean it, but I did not buy that argument.

I'm in agreement with you, Don.  This needs action on an international level like climate change (though a certain new president might disagree).  I also agree your comments about the PM's announcements but then they are are pretty much par-for-the-course at the moment. Can't even deliver a convincing looking Cabinet re-shuffle.   

I fail to understand why plastic carrier bags couldn't be totally banned in Britain within, say, 12 months. US supermarkets have been supplying paper carrier bags for years - why can't we do that, for instance?

The global problem is almost too big to contemplate. I've been lucky enough to have travelled in many so called 'exotic' locations, but in most have seen dreadful scarring of the environment caused by plastic and other forms of waste. I've seen mountains of plastic waste on the beach and seashore along the Pacific Highway south of Lima; I've seen plastic bags and other rubbish dumped for miles along the Indus in Pakistan and along the Ganges in India. In many Asian villages you only need look behind the houses, particularly if there's a river or stream on that side, to see how they dispose of waste. I remember speaking with someone about the litter in streams in Nepal to be told that the local people don't see it as litter, but rather something in the wrong place. I find that hard to believe, but if true it could only compound the problem.

I agree we need to take more radical action than is being suggested and much quicker than over a twenty-five year time span. Unfortunately though it's probably not a political vote winner. 

Ardbeg10y posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Plastic Pollution Propaganda.

 

I’m sure this forum has far better, informed proposals for eliminating plastic pollution ?

Europe is already very, very clean. Every kind of plastic dumping should not happen of course, but on a global scale we spoil almost nothing. Been in Africa and India a few times and I still don't get it why people dump all their crap on the street. Someone in India has told me that it is kind of 'social' to give others a job to clean it, but I did not buy that argument.

I wasn't really think about the discarded plastic that winds up as "litter" on our street , in our hedgerows lining our roads and motorways, or thrown into our streams and rivers. But I agree these are an eyesore and need to be recovered quickly - and better still, not discarded there in the first place. This aspect might be dealt with by better education and more rigorous policing. And possibly by having a refundable deposit on ALL plastic bottles and packaging, so that there is an incentive for it to be returned to the vendor or collection point. A bit like the old deposit on glass bottles. Non-the-less, I do agree it is a significant part of the problem and needs to be an integral part of the overall solution.

What I was really getting at is the need to be able to avoid or re-use or re-cycle ALL plastics. At present, even if we don't discard plastic as litter, very little of the collected plastics can be re-used or re-cycled and even less is actually re-cycled. I understand that most plastic can't be broken down into environmentally harmless material nor into re-usable material. It simply continues to exist or is possibly incinerated producing toxic waste in the form of fumes. Much of it is simply disposed of by land-fill or dumping at sea.

It needs legislation to eliminate plastic that can't be quickly turned into harmless product at the end of its intended use.

As well as a global clean-up campaign of the plastic that has already been inadequately disposed of.

IMHO

Clive B posted:

I fail to understand why plastic carrier bags couldn't be totally banned in Britain within, say, 12 months. US supermarkets have been supplying paper carrier bags for years - why can't we do that, for instance?

The global problem is almost too big to contemplate. I've been lucky enough to have travelled in many so called 'exotic' locations, but in most have seen dreadful scarring of the environment caused by plastic and other forms of waste. I've seen mountains of plastic waste on the beach and seashore along the Pacific Highway south of Lima; I've seen plastic bags and other rubbish dumped for miles along the Indus in Pakistan and along the Ganges in India. In many Asian villages you only need look behind the houses, particularly if there's a river or stream on that side, to see how they dispose of waste. I remember speaking with someone about the litter in streams in Nepal to be told that the local people don't see it as litter, but rather something in the wrong place. I find that hard to believe, but if true it could only compound the problem.

I agree we need to take more radical action than is being suggested and much quicker than over a twenty-five year time span. Unfortunately though it's probably not a political vote winner. 

I agree Clive - Politics rules our lives. Words by the PM today were probably designed to attract young voters but these words need to be turned into effective action. I saw the former, but no real sign of the latter !

And as you indicate, it's a global issue.

MDS posted:

I'm in agreement with you, Don.  This needs action on an international level like climate change (though a certain new president might disagree).  I also agree your comments about the PM's announcements but then they are are pretty much par-for-the-course at the moment. Can't even deliver a convincing looking Cabinet re-shuffle.   

I agree, she seems to be struggling big-time Mike. I don't anticipate much more Plastic Action this side of Brexit !

I agree with the need for a reduction of plastic but think education is a big factor.The recognition of safe disposal not careless abandonment.

when the ruling came in to make dog owners pick up the poop and place it  in a bag to sensibly dispose of,It was potentially a good idea.

I wish I had a £1 for every bag of dog **** that is swinging from a tree branch.Plastic is indeed used way more than needed but if recycled and disposed of properly from day one  then it  shouldn't of been a issue.

Personally I think the horse has well and truly bolted.

The UK, and England in particular, has a history of dragging it's feet on such issues that certainly predates the current government - not that I wish to stand up for them. The Irish republic introduced the carrier bag tax in 2002, the same year that Bangladesh banned them altogether. England was the last in the UK to introduce it, behind Wales, NI and Scotland. If we were serious about dealing with this issue, it would clearly be very easy to do without them, and I can see no reason why we couldn't achieve this in a few months. If it was a matter of (our) life and death, we could clearly manage it instantly. The 25 year figure is an irrelevance.

ChrisSU posted:

The UK, and England in particular, has a history of dragging it's feet on such issues that certainly predates the current government - not that I wish to stand up for them. The Irish republic introduced the carrier bag tax in 2002, the same year that Bangladesh banned them altogether. England was the last in the UK to introduce it, behind Wales, NI and Scotland. If we were serious about dealing with this issue, it would clearly be very easy to do without them, and I can see no reason why we couldn't achieve this in a few months. If it was a matter of (our) life and death, we could clearly manage it instantly. The 25 year figure is an irrelevance.

Hi Chris, I agree with you.

The "5p plastic bag" issue isn't even the tip of the iceberg IMHO. It's the PM's sop to an enormous issue that she has not intention of dealing with, or very little intention.

It's disgraceful.

I was in Waitrose last week, and noticed that each swede was individually wrapped in plastic and with a label saying ‘Essential Swede’. While plastic bottles can be recycled, margarine tubs, yogurt pots and the plastic swede wrapping cannot, at least where I live. 

I walk a lot and am always picking up drink bottles and taking them home. Friends of the Earth have long advocated deposits. I’m sure that if there was a 10p deposit, or maybe 20p, people would pick up these bottles. I’d also ban all plastic bags being given out or sold in shops. These, while small measures, would at least be a start. And if shops stopped over-wrapping food in the first place, it would help a bit more. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I was in Waitrose last week, and noticed that each swede was individually wrapped in plastic and with a label saying ‘Essential Swede’. While plastic bottles can be recycled, margarine tubs, yogurt pots and the plastic swede wrapping cannot, at least where I live. 

There's the dilemma HH,  it seems the local authorities need to get their acts together.    Mine publish a list of itemised do's & don'ts for recycling,  marg/butter & yogurt tubs are on the OK to recycle list.

Also when hunter gathering in the Great Forest of Wait or the Savanna of Sain my pack leader tries to gather only unwrapped fruit & veg.  Problem is its becoming more common that some items are only available wrapped.  I'm hoping the news/discussions such as this will reverse that,  or at least be packed in a biodegradable container,  paper based boxes & bags works for me & my compost heaps.  

When I lived in Michigan, you got 10 cents back on glass bottles and cans, just take them back to virtually any supermarket. Hole in the wall with some sort of scanner, counted up how much was owed to you, printed a receipt, exchange at the till. If people were hard up for cash.....they used to pick up discarded bottles and cans........sad to see, and not a good reason to bring in, but boy was the towns clean and tidy.

I don't think plastic bags are anything like the problem they were, at least in the UK. And the ones that are supplied these days seem to degrade naturally within a couple of years. It's the bottles and packaging that seems to need attention. Deposits on bottles used to work many years ago (when they were glass) but much of the food packaging just looks unnecessary to me. The big food companies and retailers need to do better here. That's not down to the consumer.

I’ve just been on the phone to Waitrose HQ, moaning about the Essential Swede. The very nice man agreed that it was stupid and said that he’d pass on my message to the packaging team. It’s a tiny, tiny thing, but if everyone started to complain..... 

I'm happy that I can now buy coffee capsules that are plant based. More items need this strategy.

Problems on so many levels; it would be interesting to have a honest tutorial on how waste management is conducted around the world. Presently we have a couple of hundred nation states on planet Earth, and many of these 'nations' won't be interested in having any obligation to environmental protection. Some will continue to use the free dumping site of the seven seas, and some are going to be spending billions on dredging the plastic detritus back up again.

It will be interesting to see how products change from the present use of everlasting plastics to biodegradable materials, perhaps toothbrushes [for example] will soon be appearing in our supermarkets with wooden handles (?) but i can't imagine that every consumer item made of plastic can be easily or affordably changed, suppose it's a case of getting rid of all unnecessary plastics [which i guess accounts for most of it] and what remains necessary to stay will have to be properly enforced for correct disposal.

It would be a good start to close down one of the main culprits; McDonalds the hideous junk food chains should now have their funds seized and used to pay for the ocean clean up. It would be a step in the right direction, and probably help prevent obesity too.

I expect what we're presently getting from this Tory Brexit government is a side show to take peoples mind of having their country stolen by back door Tory Brexit fascists, and the implementation of taxing something for easy money grab.

Debs

Debs, I believe that McDonalds are somewhat ahead of the game here and have for a number of years now tried to cut down or even eliminate the amount of plastic in their packaging. Unfortunately it's the small independent fast food shops that persist in using this awful polystyrene containers that seem to be everywhere you look in the urban streetscape. 

Plastic bottles are reported to be one of the biggest problems - they are naturally very tough and also very buoyant. They're also very easy just to sling out of a car window or toss into the bushes. Perhaps we can go back to glass and have a return to the bottle deposit.  When I was a boy I would spend the holidays in the States cleaning the verge looking for bottles in order to get the deposit back.  IIRC it was 5 cents a bottle  and I soon had quite a lucrative little bottle business going.

And don;t get me started on "poop fruit".  Where I live in the countryside there a forest nearby and a small track only used by myself, my near neighbours and some staff from the boarding school nearby.  However, somebody who uses it and has a habit of putting their dogs poo in a distinctive green bag and then slinging it into the bushes just before the exit.  When I last walked the dog that way I counted over 50 pieces of green bagged "poop fruit" - obviously the same type of bag and with that MO, doubtless the same culprit - hanging from the now denuded bushes. (Note to self - One day soon I must go and pick it all up and then pin a note on the gate.)  I find it hard to understand the thinking; obviously this person feels they're doing the right thing by picking up their dog's poo on their walk, they're even ok with carrying it throughout their walk, but then they chuck it in the bushes right at the end.  It would be so much better if they just didn't bother to pick up the poo in the first place. Indeed, they could just kick it off any pathway and nature will do its thing.  I shudder to think that this could well be a teacher! I just can't fathom it...

As I sit in my study, typing this post, I look around and see that a fair number of things are either all-plastic, or comprise a significant plastic element. :

• Dell Desktop computer
• ThinkPad Laptop computer
• HP Printer
• Epson Scanner
• Keyboard and mouse
• Power cables, plugs and sockets
• Stapler, hole punch
• Waste bin
• Miele vacuum cleaner
• Cover around grandchildren's carry-cot
• Lever-arch files
• Engineer's scale and drawing templates
• Double-glazed uPVC window

None of these will be wasted. None will be dumped by the roadside

At the end of their usefulness, each one will be taken to the local re-cycling facility (we used to call it the local "dump") where it will be ................ ???

In other words,

• how much of this CAN be recycled ?
• How much WILL be recycled ?
• How much is bi-degradable ?

What happens those elements that are not recyclable or biodegradable ?

Hi Don,

The PM offers greenwash.

You ask for positive proposals but where did Cameron's Hug-a-Husky photoshoot get us? Exactly.

I can still hear my English teachers of roughly forty years ago, Mr Jenkins and Mr Purcell, entreating class 4B to, 'look for the transitive verbs'.

Cheers, Chris_M

Richard Dane posted:

And don;t get me started on "poop fruit".  Where I live in the countryside there a forest nearby and a small track only used by myself, my near neighbours and some staff from the boarding school nearby.  However, somebody who uses it and has a habit of putting their dogs poo in a distinctive green bag and then slinging it into the bushes just before the exit.  When I last walked the dog that way I counted over 50 pieces of green bagged "poop fruit" - obviously the same type of bag and with that MO, doubtless the same culprit - hanging from the now denuded bushes. (Note to self - One day soon I must go and pick it all up and then pin a note on the gate.)  I find it hard to understand the thinking; obviously this person feels they're doing the right thing by picking up their dog's poo on their walk, they're even ok with carrying it throughout their walk, but then they chuck it in the bushes right at the end.  It would be so much better if they just didn't bother to pick up the poo in the first place. Indeed, they could just kick it off any pathway and nature will do its thing.  I shudder to think that this could well be a teacher! I just can't fathom it...

This is a pet hate for me too, Richard. I have posted on here about it in the past. Some of our friends with a dog take a small trowel with them when walking their dogs. They simply pick up the poo in the trowel and fling it in the hedgerow, well off the line of any path. Such a simple solution; I wish other dog walkers would exercise the same consideration.

Don Atkinson posted:

,

• how much of this CAN be recycled ?
• How much WILL be recycled ?
• How much is bi-degradable ?

What happens those elements that are not recyclable or biodegradable ?

 

As far as plastic is concerned, what cannot be reused or recycled, most likely incinerated in an ‘energy from waste’ plant, which do some good while reducing to a minimum what has to be sent to landfill - though at the cost of releasing the carbon content into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide (of course, that's actually a form of recycling, given that the original oil was ‘made’ from atmospheric CO2).

As a responsible dog owner I also hate the “poop fruit”. Why bother with a poo bag at all? It just makes a bad situation worse. And why do some owners insist on tying the bag to a tree or bush?

I was also annoyed by the BBC person who suggested that it was the young that cared for the environment. The same young people that drop 90% of the litter on our streets. As a teacher I worked very hard to try and change attitudes towards litter without much success.

And don’t get me started on spitting...

Apologies, I woke up grumpy (I usually let her sleep ;-) ).

Stu

We've trained our dogs to go out into the fields to do their business. If, on the odd occasion they decide to go on or near a path, I've developed a very good kicking technique to propel the poo into the undergrowth, where it can quietly disappear into the soil. I've an aversion to putting it in plastic bags (although it makes a useful handwarmer in the winter months), seems more natural to let it fertilise the ground, but in The Lake District, where we spend a large percentage of our time, our terrier has to stay on the lead so he doesn't chase the sheep, so there's no alternative to picking it up.

Agree with that Tony. When on the fells you are surrounded by sheep poo so ok to leave it as long as it’s away from the paths. But if in doubt I take it home as I would any other litter.

Handwarmer lol!

Stu

Innocent Bystander posted:

As far as plastic is concerned, what cannot be reused or recycled, most likely incinerated in an ‘energy from waste’ plant, which do some good while reducing to a minimum what has to be sent to landfill - though at the cost of releasing the carbon content into the atmosphere as carbon dioxide (of course, that's actually a form of recycling, given that the original oil was ‘made’ from atmospheric CO2).

I was invited to visit a newly opened energy recovery plant a while back.  I have to say it was most impressive, clean to the point of being spotless, odourless & smokeless.  It has a capacity to treat 300,000 tonnes of non-recyclable waste per year & that process will reduce landfill volume by aprx 95%.    According to the www blurb it generates 27 MW per hour (up to 38,000 homes).   And if the vicinity had nearby homes it could supply a local hot water/heating network.      

The waste is sorted before it arrives at the plant & the parent cmpy does that at its other plants or manages other cmpys in the process, its transported to the plant by road in container trucks, arriving at the plant mostly from the nearby M40 & aprx 1.5 miles of local main road,  the 5% waste residue goes into the landfill area located at the plant.