Why do most other manufacturers not offer external power supplies?

I take it the dealer in question is trying to sell something other than Naim...

naim is renowned for the quality of the power supply - it is the foundation on which everything else stands. Naim understand this probably better than most. The power supply inside the entry level Naim CD player is more substantial than many an amplifier. Go figure...

You can take the cynical view or the positive view. You choose.

Popeye posted:

 And said a lot of the other high end manufacturers implement hi end power supplies directly in to there products.

And a lot of high end manufacturers hamper their equipment’s potential by not putting a good enough power supply in their devices to hit a price point!  The only option there is to step up to their next product in their line at a higher cost (and the hassle of selling the product second hand) than adding a PSU to the Naim.

The Naim philosophy also allows for better isolation between power supply and the audio signals, in a similar way to the idea of isolating the power amplifier from the pre-amplifier.

All manufacturers understand the importance of the power supply. Just read their marketing. Naim do not compromise. When the supplies are optional many chose to enjoy them bare and never upgrade. Naim just give us this option if we want it. And yes further up the hierarchy they are compulsory, leaving the head unit to concentrate on its task. Then at the very top they are back in one box (or three). 

I dare say there is an element of truth in all these posts,  I do wish however we could see some movements into SMPS, I can't believe people like Linn can get it right - or claim to have - & Naim not.    Then maybe we won't need an external PSU,  or maybe a smaller optional SMPS for an upgrade path if its actually effective.  And it would be really good to have a Naim without the hum.m.m.m.         

I've always found Naim to have great sound and a certain grunt and grip others don't. The bigger power supplies certainly made a big difference.

I believe Naim is an industry leader in regards to external power supplies- they had them from day one. Back then, the thought of paying additional $$ for a power supply seemed ludicrous! Naim had it right from the onset - get the noisy bits away from sensitive circuits. Many have followed suit btw...

ATB,

Mark

Quite a few manufactures use external power supplies, though few offer upgradeable supplies. There is certainly a logic to both external, and offering a lower cost easily upgradeable entry.

However, it is a pity that Naim don’t offer an option of buying without any internal power supply for people going with an external from the start,  with cost reduced accordingly. That redundant transformer and other circuitry is a waste of money, and not in keeping with modern ideas on conservation of resources etc.

Having used the FCXS and HCDR variously on several Naim integrateds, the Stageline, CD5X, and Headline, my conclusion is that upgradable Naim boxes simply don't show all their potential upfront (obviously).

So what would the marketing strategy be here? I guess for Naim to sell more to enable the user to obtain maximum prowess. Sell additional PSUs, ICs, Powerlines, and Fraim shelves. This stepping-stone strategy naturally leads to consideration of hierarchical upgrades as well.  From a business standpoint, it's a fantastic marketing strategy provided your target market responds, and the Naim market certainly has. You like this now? Take it home today and it can get even better for you in the future. A great plan for folks with limited budget that know they can spend more tomorrow.

The alternate strategy? A simpler approach that gives you the most upfront, albeit with some less-than-optimal design constraints. I've found the simpler approach better for my own aspirations. I get more peace of mind, less worry about niggling with possible alternatives, and more sitting back and enjoying the music. What I got is what I got.

Relax and enjoy the music; the quintessential reason I spent for my gear in the first place. Not to wonder whether I'm optimized in some grandiose scheme.

joerand posted:

Having used the FCXS and HCDR variously on several Naim integrateds, the Stageline, CD5X, and Headline, my conclusion is that upgradable Naim boxes simply don't show all their potential upfront (obviously).

Surely of those you've listed, only the CD5X has an "upgradable" power supply, the others (Stageline and Headline) have no PSU making the purchaser choose between the basic option of powered via pre-amp, low end and high end options.

The alternate strategy? A simpler approach that gives you the most upfront, albeit with some less-than-optimal design constraints. I've found the simpler approach better for my own aspirations. I get more peace of mind, less worry about niggling with possible alternatives, and more sitting back and enjoying the music. What I got is what I got.

As I commented above, the alternative is that the manufacturer includes / builds in a basic PSU, and their "upgrade" strategy is to sell you their better quality, more expensive option.

There was never any "great marketing strategy" with regard to separate upgradeable power supplies.  It all came out of simple engineering to get the best possible performance.  

First, in developing the first Naim pre-amp, JV realised that in order to maximise the performance of a pre-amp, the power supply needed to be kept well away from the sensitive circuitry, so a separate power supply was the engineering solution. Of course, as the range grew this had the advantage that you could keep the power supply and only had to upgrade the pre-amp, say from a NAC12 to a NAC32, which made it easier and more affordable for the customer.  And  then, as the technology developed and the dual rail power supply arrived, you could upgrade the PSU to a Hicap and it would bring even better performance to your existing pre-amp (via the single rail output).  Next step might be to have your existing pre-amp upgraded to dual-rail (the .5 update) to take advantage of the Hicap's dual rail output.

So, when Naim were looking to build the best possible source - whether CD or tuner, the obvious route was to separate the power supply.  of course, in trying to develop less expensive sources, the power supply has to be integrated to save the great expense of a separate supply, but as the separate supplies already existed, Naim decided to give you an option to upgrade.  The cost to provide the upgrade option is relatively small from a production point of view, so why not offer it?  

The notion that Naim would purposely hamper their internal power supplies in order to get you to upgrade to a separate supply is frankly, absurd.  The engineers - and let's not forget that Naim is still an engineering led company - wouldn't stand for it.  And neither would the customers.  But the fact is that all things being equal, separating the power supply is a good thing, but does increase cost quite considerably. So, where an internal integrated supply is used, Naim make it the best they can for the money.  Better still, they give you the option to go even further.

Richard Dane posted:

 

The cost to provide the upgrade option is relatively small from a production point of view, so why not offer it?  

 

Somebody who buys an Ndac (for example) and has no intention of upgrading to an external PSU is being short changed. They’re listening to an inferior product due to it’s upgradability.

Routing the power through a loom to an external link plug MUST degrade sound quality to some extent.

If, as you say, it MUST degrade sound quality, then by how much? If it's perceptible and hamper the unit then I sincerely doubt that would be acceptable to anyone at Naim.  If it's imperceptible and performance is maintained, then I'd argue that's acceptable.  

But I'm not a Naim engineer, so I don't know whether it MUST, or it need not...  What I do know is that Naim spend a great deal of effort in the design of the products and, in the case of the Naim DAC, it was designed first and foremost to stand on its own feet.  Knowing the DAC designers as I do, if it was needlessly compromised as an "inferior product" just so that it could be upgraded with a separate power supply, I can't imagine them allowing that ever to happen.  That sort of compromise just isn't what they do.

I'm sure very few customers buy Naim's less expensive items without hearing competitive products and coming to the conclusion that they prefer the Naim, therefore they don't feel short changed at the time. I know I didn't when I bought a 42/110 in 1984.

The ability to upgrade in smaller financial steps is an attraction as is Naim's attitude to servicing and good trade in values. If I'd wanted to start with a system spending the sort of money that would buy a new Porsche I would never have achieved it  nor would I have considered it. The fact is my family have been (mostly!) enjoying my Naim based system for over 30 years and it started with me making a small sacrifice. I bought a new 2CV instead of a new Golf. So I got a nicer car and a decent stereo!

Perhaps Naim will expand their use of SMPSs, I was pleased to find that adding a Rad!kal to my LP12 didn't ruin the sound like the first generation Lingo did. However, I'm sure they won't unless they can be an improvement over what has gone before.

SAT posted:

Perhaps Naim will expand their use of SMPSs, I was pleased to find that adding a Rad!kal to my LP12 didn't ruin the sound like the first generation Lingo did. However, I'm sure they won't unless they can be an improvement over what has gone before.

Yes this would be interesting. They've dipped their toe into this with the n-Vi and the HDX / NS units (and Serve) have had various combinations of linear / SMPS solutions.

Engineering issues aside, they'd also need to overcome the perception in the user community around SMPS and audio, however good the final result is.

james n posted:

SAT posted:

Perhaps Naim will expand their use of SMPSs, I was pleased to find that adding a Rad!kal to my LP12 didn't ruin the sound like the first generation Lingo did. However, I'm sure they won't unless they can be an improvement over what has gone before.

Yes this would be interesting. They've dipped their toe into this with the n-Vi and the HDX / NS units (and Serve) have had various combinations of linear / SMPS solutions.

Engineering issues aside, they'd also need to overcome the perception in the user community around SMPS and audio, however good the final result is.

Surely embracing SMPS and installing alongside (or replacing) the linear supplies would be the best way of overcoming that perception - though there might be some who would be suspicious of lighter and cheaper boxes...

Innocent Bystander posted:

james n posted:

SAT posted:

Perhaps Naim will expand their use of SMPSs, I was pleased to find that adding a Rad!kal to my LP12 didn't ruin the sound like the first generation Lingo did. However, I'm sure they won't unless they can be an improvement over what has gone before.

Yes this would be interesting. They've dipped their toe into this with the n-Vi and the HDX / NS units (and Serve) have had various combinations of linear / SMPS solutions.

Engineering issues aside, they'd also need to overcome the perception in the user community around SMPS and audio, however good the final result is.

Surely embracing SMPS and installing alongside (or replacing) the linear supplies would be the best way of overcoming that perception - though there might be some who would be suspicious of lighter and cheaper boxes...

No disagreement from me. I'd be very open to a well implemented SMPS solution.

fatcat posted:

Richard Dane posted:

 The cost to provide the upgrade option is relatively small from a production point of view, so why not offer it?  

Somebody who buys an Ndac (for example) and has no intention of upgrading to an external PSU is being short changed. They’re listening to an inferior product due to it’s upgradability.

No, your logic is flawed. 

Naim nDAC is (I think £2600). The power supply in that is built for a £2600 product. 

It can be upgraded with the XPS DR (£4000) or 555PS (£7000) but if these options didn’t exist the PSU built in to the £2600 nDAC wouldn’t be the equivalent of an XPS or 555PS - either there would be a single DAC at £7000 or three products at £2600, £6600 and £9600 with the expense involved of selling the old and buying the new when you want to upgrade!

So no, no one is being “short changed”. 

Richard Dane posted:

If, as you say, it MUST degrade sound quality, then by how much? If it's perceptible and hamper the unit then I sincerely doubt that would be acceptable to anyone at Naim.  If it's imperceptible and performance is maintained, then I'd argue that's acceptable.  

But I'm not a Naim engineer, so I don't know whether it MUST, or it need not...  What I do know is that Naim spend a great deal of effort in the design of the products and, in the case of the Naim DAC, it was designed first and foremost to stand on its own feet.  Knowing the DAC designers as I do, if it was needlessly compromised as an "inferior product" just so that it could be upgraded with a separate power supply, I can't imagine them allowing that ever to happen.  That sort of compromise just isn't what they do.

The nDAC is very good on its own with no added power supply. It seems to me that its sources (typically streamers) are very sensitive to noise. 

The great benefit of this forum is that if you spend long enough as an active forum member you eventually get the answers that best suits yourself. It is difficult to assess what is posted though.

I do think that some things could be put in a guide though such as racks, cable dressing, box spacing, need for high quality network switches (£50 does buy a refurbished Cisco 2960 8tc) which is essential for streaming. I believe from post I read that Linn do more to help customers.

Phil

Eloise posted:

fatcat posted:

Richard Dane posted:

 The cost to provide the upgrade option is relatively small from a production point of view, so why not offer it?  

Somebody who buys an Ndac (for example) and has no intention of upgrading to an external PSU is being short changed. They’re listening to an inferior product due to it’s upgradability.

No, your logic is flawed. 

Naim nDAC is (I think £2600). The power supply in that is built for a £2600 product. 

It can be upgraded with the XPS DR (£4000) or 555PS (£7000) but if these options didn’t exist the PSU built in to the £2600 nDAC wouldn’t be the equivalent of an XPS or 555PS - either there would be a single DAC at £7000 or three products at £2600, £6600 and £9600 with the expense involved of selling the old and buying the new when you want to upgrade!

So no, no one is being “short changed”. 

Eloise, you put it very well. As you know, we both have a 272, and the situation is very similar to that with the dac - it can operate by itself or with a power supply. If you look inside you see that there is only room for a small power supply. If you look in a 555PS you see that the transformer is huge. There is no way you’d get that all in the 272 case, along with the gubbins that’s inside a 272 already. The point being made by some, which I entirely understand, is that some of the 272 (or nDac, NDX or whatever) is wasted once you add a power supply - the transformer, some capacitors, some wires, the mains socket and lead, the link plug. If these weren’t there the product may be say £200 cheaper, maybe a bit more. But a buyer would need to fork out for a power supply at the same time, so rather than spending £3,500 they’d be spending over £7,000. 

Having owned Naim since 1983 the power supplies have become just part of the way it is. But wouldn’t it be great if there was another way. I’d love to get the performance and sound of my 272/555/300 in two boxes rather than four. If the Linn options had a sound that appealed to me, which they don’t, I’d buy them. The Linn approach is so elegant, and then of course there is the option of a four channel amp that includes an active crossover. 

Eloise posted:

fatcat posted:

Richard Dane posted:

 The cost to provide the upgrade option is relatively small from a production point of view, so why not offer it?  

Somebody who buys an Ndac (for example) and has no intention of upgrading to an external PSU is being short changed. They’re listening to an inferior product due to it’s upgradability.

No, your logic is flawed. 

Naim nDAC is (I think £2600). The power supply in that is built for a £2600 product. 

It can be upgraded with the XPS DR (£4000) or 555PS (£7000) but if these options didn’t exist the PSU built in to the £2600 nDAC wouldn’t be the equivalent of an XPS or 555PS - either there would be a single DAC at £7000 or three products at £2600, £6600 and £9600 with the expense involved of selling the old and buying the new when you want to upgrade!

So no, no one is being “short changed”. 

Oh yes they are.

Have you read the second paragraph I posted, or my no intention of upgrading comment.

Routing the power through a loom to an external link plug MUST degrade sound quality to some extent.

If the option to upgrade the ndac didn’t exist, Naim wouldn’t route the power through a loom to an external link plug arrangement. This would be silly, as it MUST degrade sound quality. The power would go direct to the relevant circuits.

If the Ndac didn’t have the upgrade option, it would sound better than the current Ndac not powered by an external PSU, and it would cost less to produce. (no socket and link plug required)

fatcat posted:

 

Routing the power through a loom to an external link plug MUST degrade sound quality to some extent.

If the option to upgrade the ndac didn’t exist, Naim wouldn’t route the power through a loom to an external link plug arrangement. This would be silly, as it MUST degrade sound quality. The power would go direct to the relevant circuits.

If the Ndac didn’t have the upgrade option, it would sound better than the current Ndac not powered by an external PSU, and it would cost less to produce. (no socket and link plug required)

A few DC power rails routed to an external socket and a couple of extra connections to allow this to work. Doubtful if that would make much difference if any at all.

Other audio manufacturers like Bryston, Lamm and YBA have also been offering amplification with an outboard power supply for quite some time. The above is the newest flagship pre-amp from Nagra costing almost twice the price of a 552.

Yes, Bryston do it with their preamps (though not power amps).

Musical Fidelity used to do it with preamps a couple of decades ago  (no idea if they still do)

And I did it partially with my second home-brew amp back in about 1971: partially in that the transformer was in a separate box positioned some distance away to isolate it (and enable the the amp box to be slim).

fatcat posted:

Oh yes they are.

Have you read the second paragraph I posted, or my no intention of upgrading comment.

Routing the power through a loom to an external link plug MUST degrade sound quality to some extent.

If the option to upgrade the ndac didn’t exist, Naim wouldn’t route the power through a loom to an external link plug arrangement. This would be silly, as it MUST degrade sound quality. The power would go direct to the relevant circuits.

If the Ndac didn’t have the upgrade option, it would sound better than the current Ndac not powered by an external PSU, and it would cost less to produce. (no socket and link plug required)

Okay I understand your point now (I was replying to a point you weren't really making) ... the requirement to route the power to the Bundy socket might cause a very slight degradation of sound ... looking at a picture of the nDAC internally it does introduced maybe 15cm of extra LV power interconnect.

I still contend no one is "short changed" by this option; or at least more people would be short changed by removing the option to upgrade the PSU.

It may cost less in term of parts; but would it also be of less worth because people no longer had the upgrade potential?