Do you have your system on its own dedicated ring on the house electrical supply?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Minh Nguyen posted:

When I had my extension built the wiring was on a ring main with its own circuit using 6mm cable. I plugged up my system expecting to hear a noticeable difference but there was none! I then realised that I should have asked for a radial circuit. So one day when my brother came to visit, I expressed my disappointment about not having the wiring done correctly and he turned around to me and said, if you unchain those two sockets you'll end up with two radial circuits. I thought this was outrageous at first but when he talked me through the logic it all made sense. So we went ahead and disconnected the chain. Low and behold there was no difference in sound quality! He asked me why I went to all the trouble of having a dedicated circuit instead of extending the ring main? I explained that for some people it improves the sound quality. He laughed. He laughed so hard I began to laugh. I was wondering why he found it so funny. He said to me, do you realise that you are sharing power with all your neighbours on this street? They are drawing from the same source and you cannot control how much electricity they are using. Having that dedicated circuit is not going to make a sodding difference. It's all in your head. He was right. I couldn't hear any difference. It's a pity because I would have loved for it to have made a difference. Lucky for some.

Essentially it all depends on how good your mains is, and susceptible your equipment is. With the same equipment it is just down to the mains supply, in your home: what else is on it, maybe how the cables run, and possibly the layout of the consumer unit.

If you have no sources of interference then adding a separate radial circuit may have nothing to improve.

And a separate radial circuit can do nothing about interference borne on the mains supply to the house.

in my view it makes most sense to start by disconnecting everything in the house except the hifi. If it sounds the same as when everything is running then it is unlikely that a specialist supply will make much difference. And of course ithe test of temporarily splitting the ring making two radial circuits with one ending at the critical weuipment is quite easy if you know what you’re doing  (or have a tame electrician available when just the hifi is connected, as described above, would verify whether the ring itself is causing any problem.

I'd love to have one of those Tesla home battery solutions. A true dedicated supply to power my system. I'd assume this would be the holy grail of power sources? Correct me if I'm wrong: I don't have much engineering knowledge.

Innocent Bystander, I forgot to mention that my speakers used to 'pop' momentarily on occasion and I discovered that it was due to my fridge freezer 'powering' up. I had my dedicated mains fitted to try to circumvent this situation and it didn't provide any resolution. I ended up buying a new fridge freezer. I guess in my case a dedicated mains doesn't offer much benefit.

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

count.d posted:

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

Count.D, To be honest I'm finding it difficult to interpret what you've written. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics but I assume the larger bore pipe would fill the bucket faster? Or is it a trick question? They both take the same amount of time? However, if all of your neighbours were to run a bath at the same time, there may be the possibility that it would take longer for you to fill your bucket.

I'm completely lost as to the significance of what you're trying to express in the last two paragraphs. Please enlighten me.

Minh Nguyen posted:

count.d posted:

Minh, I share my water supply with my whole village. I have two taps, one with 3/8" bore pipe, the other with 3/4" bore pipe. Which one fills the bucket quicker?

My Naim only needs xx amps to function, so what's the point in making more amps available? Wrong question.

Given the conversation we had on Bitcoin, I'm not expecting much. 

Count.D, To be honest I'm finding it difficult to interpret what you've written. I don't know anything about fluid dynamics but I assume the larger bore pipe would fill the bucket faster? Or is it a trick question? They both take the same amount of time? However, if all of your neighbours were to run a bath at the same time, there may be the possibility that it would take longer for you to fill your bucket.

I'm completely lost as to the significance of what you're trying to express in the last two paragraphs. Please enlighten me.

I think he is trying to say that current delivery to the power amp will be quicker down a 10mm^2  cable compared to a smaller cable.

However, given that peak current for instantaneous music peaks is provided by the reservoir capacitors, and so does not need to be supplied anywhere near as fast by the mains supply, I am not convinced that such extreme cable sizes actually make a difference. 

The analogy is a water supply that in the premises uses a tank, so the size of pipe filling the tank is only of significance to the water user if the tank isn’t large enough and runs out before the demand is finished. (Pipes from the tank to whatever are then analagous to the cables bewteen power supply and amp.) 

Actually, thinking of that last point in the analogy, given the lower voltages in the output cables from the power supply to the amp compared to mains voltage,, the current they carry will be higher (inversely proportional). So even without reservoir capacitors the mains cableconductor size would only be a bottleneck to current flow if it is significantly smaller than the power supply to amp cable conductor size.

Its the low frequencies that are demanding of the current. Yes, the caps as designed to hold that current in reserve for when its needed and deliver that current instantly. I.e a bass drum in a piece of music, that instant kick pulls a lot of current. If you are listening to a complex piece with lots of fast quick low frequencies the caps cant be replenished quite quick enough and effects timing and your PRAT.

The larger the supply cable the more freely and easier it is for your system caps to be replenished. Obviously, this is more beneficial and helps if other products in your house are on and using current when you're listening to music.

Back to the water principle. The more taps you have running at one time the flow is reduced at the given outlets. If storing your water your tanks are the systems capacitors. If the main supply isn't big enough and lots of taps are running the mains cant fill the tank quick enough. (water main is your dedicated hifi supply).

popeye

I don‘t disagree with the principle and the analogy, but whether a beating bass drum - or, more likely, that combined with sustained loud passages from other instruments, particularly perhaps sustained high level bass notes - can deplete the capacitors sufficiently for the rate of replenishment through standard size mains cabling to be the limiting factor Restricting the amp’s peak capability or speed of response is something of which I am unconvinced except possibly in the most extreme circumstances (assuming that the power amp design is not woefully inadequate)

The mains provides an moderately stable alternating voltage (electric field) that delivers energy from the power stations to the electric components that want it. Aside from the reservoir capacitors compensating for very short term overloads, the energy supplied by the mains is in proportion to the energy coming out of the speaker plus a background level reflecting heat (energy) loss.

Energy is a complex notation to grapple with, but it is fundamental in physics because it is a conserved quality.  I doubt the electrons ever travel any great distance in the mains (unlike water) because the electric field is sinusoidal. Then consider how the crystal structure of metals and semiconductors is affected by physical conditions. Most notions of what is happening are approximations. Impossible to model.

Phil

Interesting analogies aside, my reason for (finally) getting my mains supply sorted was that it seemed the most sensible route to go to makes the most of my system. I'm happy with my kit so there's nowhere to go there (apart from a possible speaker change) and for a fairly modest (in Hi-Fi terms) amount of money i can give the system a dedicated supply. My system benefited a few years back when we redecorated and i took the opportunity to  remake all the connections on the lounge ring sockets. Getting as direct a route as i can between the Hi-Fi mains socket and the meter tails (and incoming earth) seems a sensible approach to me.

Source first etc 

James

james n posted:

Interesting analogies aside, my reason for (finally) getting my mains supply sorted was that it seemed the most sensible route to go to makes the most of my system. I'm happy with my kit so there's nowhere to go there (apart from a possible speaker change) and for a fairly modest (in Hi-Fi terms) amount of money i can give the system a dedicated supply. My system benefited a few years back when we redecorated and i took the opportunity to  remake all the connections on the lounge ring sockets. Getting as direct a route as i can between the Hi-Fi mains socket and the meter tails (and incoming earth) seems a sensible approach to me.

Source first etc 

James

 

If the mains distribution and connected items in your home cause a degradation of sound quality -or if you fear they might - then the separate supply can indeed be an effective solution, and in the scheme of things can be relatively inexpensive (depending of course on your home layout), so is an easily justifiable and reasonable thing to do, and one that will certainly have no detrimental effect on sound quality, while depending on circumstances it could be beneficial.

For the sake of clarity, my own contributions above related to the cable size used and nothing else, purely challenging the argument that was advanced for a need for very heavy cable. However, provided the fittings are capable of taking the cable gauge, and the electrician competent with it, there is certainly no detriment in over-specifying, and if the installation routing and budget allows, there is no reason why not, so one does not need to fret over whether or not lesser cable has a less beneficial effect, however valid or not the basis of the fretting. So those choosing to use 10mm^2 - or 2 inch busbars - need have no concern.

We have progress. The installation is going well so far and it's also a good opportunity to strip everything down and give it all a good clean and dust. Looking forward to getting my music back though !

Is your electrician too lazy to put in a recessed back box?!

Nah - he's doing a sterling job. I had to have a surface mount box here due to an HDMI cable running up the wall at that point. Access on the external wall (where the cable heads up to the loft) would have been difficult with a recessed box as we'd have to go to the right to clear the HDMI cable. It all sits behind the racks so no issues with a box rather than recessed. 

All done James?

It is David. Probably one of the best VFM system upgrades. I'm well chuffed 

Wonderful James. Very pleased to hear that ????

James, could you post the spec you finally had installed please. Thanks.

Dedicated radial, feeding off a large balanced power supply which knocks out the asymmetric mains (or dc offset), stopping the Naim transformers from humming, while reducing background noise and improving dynamics of the system.

Best regards, FT

FT, it depends of course where the DC offset is coming from and the nature of your other home wiring..if DC offset occurs on your phase between you and your high voltage step down transformer/sub station, as in my majority case , then having a separate radial will make no difference at all as far humming transformers.

Simon

Elkman - here you go :-

Note this is a UK installation, complies and has been certified to the latest regs.

In the meter cupboard, A Henley block splits the 25mm2 meter tails between the house consumer unit and the new Hi-Fi consumer unit. The incoming 16mm2 Earth cable is split here too. 

The meter sits on the other side of the wall from the consumer units in the garage. The new tails run through the wall and up the conduit into the new consumer unit. 

From the new consumer unit, a single 10mm2 T&E cable runs along the wall before heading up to the loft via a bedroom wardrobe. As the new radial is not RCD protected, the cable must be surface run to meet the regs which works fine for the installation cable route we decided on. 

A single 32A Type C MCB and Isolator switch. The Isolator switch should be 100A not the 63A fitted. The electrician is coming back to change it. 

As the lounge is on the opposite side of the house to the garage we needed an unbroken run of 25m T&E from the new consumer unit to the lounge. The cable runs up to and along the loft, exits the gable end wall and then makes the final drop down the wall inside conduit to the back of the new socket.

25m of cable later it terminates at a double un-switched socket, surface mounted to clear an existing HDMI cable chased into the wall for the TV. All i have left to do now is have the Isolator swapped to the correct rating (not that 63A is inadequate in anyway for this application) and get the engraved labels fitted for the lounge socket (stating it's for Hi-Fi use and not RCD Protected) and for the new consumer unit to show how this socket is isolated. 

Worth it ? definitely. For the price of a new Powerline, this has made a surprising difference to my enjoyment of the system. Greater clarity, the removal of some treble harshness which was noticeable on some albums and music has such a natural flow. Bass is tighter and deeper and an already very low noise floor is now even lower. Taking the system off the lounge ring and getting its supply (and Earth) as close to the incoming feed as possible has really benefited things more than i really expected. 

Thanks to all who have offered advice and guidance which made the process a lot simpler and finally made me get my arse into gear to get this done. My only regret is not doing it sooner ! 

 James

 James, Excellent photos and description. Thank you. I will be following the same path in the near future.

No worries - I'll be interested in how you get on. 

James

James, thanks for the clear and detailed description. As they say a picture tells a thousand words. I want to do the same when I move so this is of great help to me.

Cheers.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

FT, ..., then having a separate radial will make no difference at all as far humming transformers.

Simon

Indeed Simon. The BPS, not the dedicated radial, is there to knock out the  “DC offset” and with it the transformer hum in the Naim boxes. The transformers did hum when powered off a dedicated radial; it was installing the BPS that cured the hum.

It worked a treat to for us, though may not always do so for others.

FT

no