Cat amongst the upgrade pigeons

It's a similar train of thought to my main system which I enjoy immensely. Active NBL's, what's not to like?

However, I live part of the year in Australia and whilst there, enjoy my SuperUniti into Neat Elite SX speakers. For the first week or so, I "miss" the active NBL system. After that, I simply enjoy the music.
However, it's always fantastic going back to the UK and being able to enjoy my active NBL system though :-)

Interesting topic.

I think the key to the whole process is to only upgrade after a lengthy home dem. I have a Great dealer who is extremely helpful and patient.

Plus Its easier to decide if the results are better or just different.

I have upgraded a number of times over the last few years and I’m pleased to say my enjoyment of the music has been enhanced on each occasion .

I also enjoy the process of demoing.

Its all part and parcel of this great hobby we all love.

Interpreting this another way, can I say with hand on heart that I enjoy listening to music on my system today than I did on my very first home-brew system with all its limitations (and with a present day new value 1/25-1/30 of my present system? The answer is no.

But I do find more to like in the sound, and certainly I hear more of what is in the music, and am better able to hear and so appreciate subtleties in the music - but I’m not sure I would call enjoying listening to music more.

As for upgrades that fixed problems, I only recall 3 that took away something bad, two were very early on: one was changing the my original Garard SP25 deck for a Thorens TD150 after 2 or 3 years, getting rid of the rumble, and at about the same beuilding another pair of speakers, this time with tweeters, revealing a whole upper register that had been missing before (though maybe that wasn’t taking something away!). The third was my conversion to streaming, starting with ripping my vinyl collection, removing some of the surface noise, then downloading new copies of many of the most  worn ones. 

So by that measure the many £1000s I’ve spent over the years has mostly been a complete waste of money...

Some people itch for change and/or "progress"; that is a valid pleasure-pursuit I support.

I think I am a stasis-seeker.  I started with a decent, aging 5.1 Denon system, which was a good staying-point.  When I had money to fix what was not broken, I inserted a 112/150/FC2X/CD5X into the mix and discovered a new world, through the same KEF Q50s I was already using.  Within 18 months, I had traded the 112 et all for used 552/500/Naim DAC/NDX-FM -- this was even better.  It is possible I missed many waypoints that would have given me sincere regret at their passing, and of the trade-offs at the end of the road.  The way I went, I find myself at, unarguably, "(way) good enough", and am enjoying the shockingly good results of distributing the Naim 500 throughout the whole house, which reduces the $/sq ft of enjoyment to a nearly-economical level. 

This hobby has fast lanes and slow lanes, and both can provide a pleasant journey.  Fast or slow, my journey is at a satisfying staying point again.

Nick

The cat is in my head, keeps reminding me that if I ever end up with a megabucks system there will be no joy, only a constant feeling of being a complete fake, needing such extravagant hardware to enjoy the music.

I recognize the thinking process on the upgrades. And I think there is some truth to it. I can also enjoy my Muso, but I also have the full system. 

At a certain stage it’s about perfecting - which doesn’t necessarily bring you the same benefit then when you made the key steps.

Haim Ronen posted:

The cat is in my head, keeps reminding me that if I ever end up with a megabucks system there will be no joy, only a constant feeling of being a complete fake, needing such extravagant hardware to enjoy the music.

You already have a megabucks system. At least according to the other 98%.

I'd pay anything to be able to enjoy music like I did as a teenager. (Entire basis for HiFi industry.) 

Haim Ronen posted:

The cat is in my head, keeps reminding me that if I ever end up with a megabucks system there will be no joy, only a constant feeling of being a complete fake, needing such extravagant hardware to enjoy the music.

With our system in my work place a little Aiwa microsystem which we stream off YouTube - internet radio stations and play CDs on I always find the sound hugely enjoyable.Prehaps it's the lack of resolution and I am not listening for detail that I know is there on recordings on my home system.You just get the gist of what's playing and that's great.

Really happy with  the sound of my Quad 2805 electrostatics and Dartzeel NHB 108 Poweramp and Nagra PLL valve preamp.I could upgrade but I think I am there now.As the original poster so eloquently says the sound could change with say a cable upgrade - new rack but would the sound be massively better or more a subtle lift.

I suppose our hobby majors on resolution and if you have alot of it with your big system it's just going to be  small incremental gain's.I am not scratching the itch anymore but it's all part of the fun if you are as everyone has a different system and room acoutic

Kevin Richardson posted:

I'd pay anything to be able to enjoy music like I did as a teenager. (Entire basis for HiFi industry.) 

Agreed, safe for the word anything. (In my case, paradoxically and ironically too, it wasn't so much the basis for my contribution to the wealth of the HiFi industry as a consequence of my studies and then job as professional musician).

I don't think it' completely impossible to conquest short moments of teenagers joy, though: I sometimes happen to be alone at home and play a given old LP which makes me sing like a big goat at the top of my voice, usually doing harmonies to the main line, and being happy again for 3 minutes.  

Haim Ronen posted:

The cat is in my head, keeps reminding me that if I ever end up with a megabucks system there will be no joy, only a constant feeling of being a complete fake, needing such extravagant hardware to enjoy the music.

Hi H.,

I agree. On the other hand, I find an inherent flaw in your otherwise clever proposition: you'd be right in feeling a fake if you needed extravagant megabuck gear to enjoy music; but this is not what happens – most owners of extravagant MB gear have no real interest in music, but in the gear. I still admit, openly and without any embarrassment, that I enjoy music on the Tivoli on the kitchen counter and sound on the big system. It isn't a problem for me, as I think it is not for some men (or women) to distinguish between making love and having sex.

Ciao

M.

Speaking of the difference in interest in music, in my narrow personal experience, I find it interesting that my parents both played the piano, but neither was ultimately interested in music enough to buy more than a dozen popular records in my whole childhood.  I tried at piano and exhibited true anti-talent; now my daughter has a clear gift and passion for it.  

All that background stated, my daughter and I are the ones who love music playing constantly, not just for the company of it, but for the accu-pressure-like release that happens whenever an insightful performance intersects with delivery over the sympathetic Hi-Fi system.  Unexpected beauty turns up often.

I think I get fair value from my mega-buck system.  Maybe I could have paid less and gotten more; but time is a factor in these decisions.

Nick

Good topic, and one that interests me as having just got my NDX/Supernait2 and it sounds fantastic. You can always get better in life and be chasing your tail. Problem with electronics is that technolagy changes also so its a neverending circle.

Then there's the music. In simpler past times getting an album or a single was more of an event, with dedicated interest in the listening.

Now with streaming services providing more material than any one can deal with at the touch of a finger - dedicated listening is more of a task and clouds over those upgrades - perhaps ?

TOBYJUG posted:

Then there's the music. In simpler past times getting an album or a single was more of an event, with dedicated interest in the listening.

Now with streaming services providing more material than any one can deal with at the touch of a finger - dedicated listening is more of a task and clouds over those upgrades - perhaps ?

That's it !!

I had forgotten the excitement of buying a new album (after savings up for it !!!) And then playing it to death...from side to side ...not jumping to a particular track that was a favourite...and getting an appreciation for the WHOLE album ....

I miss that feeling ...

Blackmorec posted:

---

Then there are the upgrades that take away something. A vague hardness to the sound, an edginess, a resonance in the bass,  a vague opacity, an electronic overlay or hash, an exageration of certain frequencies. Their absence makes the music more natural, more believable, more beautiful, more heart rending. These are upgrades you appreciate each time you listen to your system, that makes it more charming, more realistic, more believable, more engaging. 

Think back to some of the upgrades you’ve made and ask yourself, “am i enjoying my system more since I upgraded or about the same”  and I’m sure you’ll agree, some upgrades may initially sound stunning but do little to uplift your level of enjoyment once the novelty wears off, while others fundamentally uplift your long term enjoyment of your music and enhance every listening session. 

I would postulate that upgrades that don’t add to your long term enjoyment are really poor value for money compared to those that permanently increase your enjoyment and reward continuously.  Think of upgrades this way and you may make some very different choices. 

I get your theory/ hypothesis, with qualifications.  One of my most recent changes was on the face of it very minor - I swapped over a hi-line din-din interconnect on my cd player for sarum t.  It was a very subtle introduction with no extra shouty sparkle, but it managed to add considerable coherence to the sound.  No idea how they do it, but for me most convincing.

Any change which fails to add long term enjoyment is indeed poor value and arguably should be quickly moved on when the realisation occurs (and funds permit!).  Hence the regular suggestions on this and other forums to try out components at home if possible before purchasing.  The problem is that until you have purchased the component and had it up and running in your system at home for some time, chances are you may not realise the change is not for the better.  Sometimes even with the benefit of a home audition!  This can be replicated in several other areas of life - cars being a particularly good example of money being thrown at what is often only a problem existing in your head, in pursuit of an ideal end game which may never exist!

Hence, whilst I agree with the jist of your comments, upgrades are part of the ritual of society's constant strive to improve which is almost impossible for many to control, other than through the reality checks of financial constraints/ the other half!!

Peter

Thanks to the OP for making an important observation.

If one enjoys driving one can get a lot of pleasure driving a well spec’d VW.  One may hanker for a Bentley or Aston but in terms of the core function of a car the extra cost of an expensive car is often about things that have little to do with core function.

i heard a Statement / Magico system a while ago and was somewhat disappointed.  Scale, dynamics, separation, clarity, detail etc were incredible but it lacked the boogie, fun and intimacy of my system at home.  

Some people want and can afford the very best but I’m sure the quest for the best can lead one into a degree of obsessivness and a focus on peripheral details that take one away from just enjoying the music.  That said if there is an aspect of the sound of one’s system that grates  and can’t be ignored it has to be addressed, even if funding available necessitates a downgrade.

i always find it interesting to see the systems of well respected journalists.  A number stick with older classic equipment for their personal enjoyment and there’s probably a lesson there.

As they say, don't listen to the system, listen to the music!

Max_B posted:

. . . I enjoy music on the Tivoli on the kitchen counter and sound on the big system. . .

I am with you, Max.  I have to say I like the music better when it sounds better; though, in truth, I do not think I care as much about accuracy as I do about PRAT and pleasing overall sound.  I have  Tivoli Songbook I take on trips; it amazes me.  The funny thing about a sound nerds like me is I cannot resist tinkering with placement of even the Tivoli — once, in a rather grand hotel, I found that putting the Songbook into the large window bay, instead of on a table, allowed me to tune the bass to a very pleasing point.  Too far back in the bay was not good at all, but an inch or two back from the front edge was very sympathetic.  

It is good to have a forum on which to share these joys; the family gets a little worn out with these celebrations.

Nick

Talking about upgrades ...

There has been for at least 8 hours music in our house today. There was not a single involvement of hifi: it was all on real instruments. Mostly the piano. We have a good Schimmel T130 upright piano and I did not have an upgrade itch over the last 15 years since I have the piano.

And the kids take over from me these days. I was listening to Carl Philippe Emmanuel Bachs Solfegietto and Schumanns Kinderszenen for hours, hours and hours and there was no moment that I was bored. My teacher said often 'I hear many good things' when I played some music on my lessons, and now I find myself saying it to my kids.

Forget upgrades, forget hifi, get a recorder, djembe, pots pans, a violin, or sing like an old goat with the tivoli like Max, but make music.

'The rest is noise' (read that book, if you haven't yet).

Ardbeg10y posted:

Talking about upgrades ...

There has been for at least 8 hours music in our house today. There was not a single involvement of hifi: it was all on real instruments. Mostly the piano. We have a good Schimmel T130 upright piano and I did not have an upgrade itch over the last 15 years since I have the piano.

And the kids take over from me these days. I was listening to Carl Philippe Emmanuel Bachs Solfegietto and Schumanns Kinderszenen for hours, hours and hours and there was no moment that I was bored. My teacher said often 'I hear many good things' when I played some music on my lessons, and now I find myself saying it to my kids.

Forget upgrades, forget hifi, get a recorder, djembe, pots pans, a violin, or sing like an old goat with the tivoli like Max, but make music.

'The rest is noise' (read that book, if you haven't yet).

That's just lovely.  

Reminds me of an art teacher that recommended taking paper pad, pencils and what not to galleries and any other such places that held interesting things and vistas.  

 Making your own impression/expression of something really does bring you closer.

Japtimscarlet posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

Then there's the music. In simpler past times getting an album or a single was more of an event, with dedicated interest in the listening.

Now with streaming services providing more material than any one can deal with at the touch of a finger - dedicated listening is more of a task and clouds over those upgrades - perhaps ?

That's it !!

I had forgotten the excitement of buying a new album (after savings up for it !!!) And then playing it to death...from side to side ...not jumping to a particular track that was a favourite...and getting an appreciation for the WHOLE album ....

I miss that feeling ...

Welcome back! With very rare exceptions that is the only way I have ever played music, unaltered in 50 years.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Talking about upgrades ...

There has been for at least 8 hours music in our house today. There was not a single involvement of hifi: it was all on real instruments. Mostly the piano. We have a good Schimmel T130 upright piano and I did not have an upgrade itch over the last 15 years since I have the piano.

And the kids take over from me these days. I was listening to Carl Philippe Emmanuel Bachs Solfegietto and Schumanns Kinderszenen for hours, hours and hours and there was no moment that I was bored. My teacher said often 'I hear many good things' when I played some music on my lessons, and now I find myself saying it to my kids.

Forget upgrades, forget hifi, get a recorder, djembe, pots pans, a violin, or sing like an old goat with the tivoli like Max, but make music.

'The rest is noise' (read that book, if you haven't yet).

Whilst I understand exactly, and to some extent  agree, that alone would be missing a lot of wonderful - and there is a significant process of learning and getting to a level of competence where you can just pick up some new piece of music and enjoy playing it, or create your own: a process that takes a lot of time and commitment as well as an instrument.

Sometimes I do pick my violin or my son’s cello enjoy playing a few things, or turn on the keyboard and mess about with sounds  for hours - one of my promises to myself when Inretire is to learn to play my instruments properly.

Kevin Richardson posted:

I'd pay anything to be able to enjoy music like I did as a teenager. (Entire basis for HiFi industry.) 

Probably the single truest utterance EVER on any hifi forum