Do I need a tube amp?

Which rega table is it ?

What cart ?

What phono stage or is it built in..

a good tube amp is not romantically "warm", it is very transparent, detailled and open. that's what I learned from Octave Audio, McIntosh, Nagra and some others. Of course, you can tune the character of an amp with different tubes 300B, EL34, KT88 etc....but again, I wouldn't call a tube amp "per se" warm. Guess you have to do a listen for yourself. Try crazy combis like an expensive amp to see what your loudspeakers are able to reproduce and maybe expensive loudspeaker with your amp to analyse. my 2cents...

I'm biased, of course you do.

Well, not really, I recently fitted a Rega Carbon cartridge to my brother in laws original Rega Planar 3, it stands on an Ikea cupboard along with his Arcam Alpha amp and a pair of £70 speakers vibrating the whole assembly.  There is no way it should have sounded as good as it did, especially as it was connected using some scrap telephone extension cable. An hour with some cork mat, a couple of metres of Chord Clearway and experimenting with speaker positioning, still on top of the cupboard and I was halfway to demonstrating width, depth and height of a stereo system.

So the suggestion is first read up a bit about set up and speaker positioning, if you have not already done so.

Sorry I thought it would show my setup. It's a Planar 2 with the Rega Fono Mini a2d pre-amp, Unitiqute 2 with some Leema Acoustic Xone speakers. The cart is the standard MM with a carbon needle. 

T38.45 posted:

a good tube amp is not romantically "warm", it is very transparent, detailled and open. that's what I learned from Octave Audio, McIntosh, Nagra and some others. Of course, you can tune the character of an amp with different tubes 300B, EL34, KT88 etc....but again, I wouldn't call a tube amp "per se" warm. Guess you have to do a listen for yourself. Try crazy combis like an expensive amp to see what your loudspeakers are able to reproduce and maybe expensive loudspeaker with your amp to analyse. my 2cents...

If you provide the expensive loudspeakers I will provide the ears for listening  

:-)

For how long do you have this setup?  A new cartridge and phono preamp take a little time to break in.

T38.45 posted:

a good tube amp is not romantically "warm", it is very transparent, detailled and open. that's what I learned from Octave Audio, McIntosh, Nagra and some others. Of course, you can tune the character of an amp with different tubes 300B, EL34, KT88 etc....but again, I wouldn't call a tube amp "per se" warm. Guess you have to do a listen for yourself. Try crazy combis like an expensive amp to see what your loudspeakers are able to reproduce and maybe expensive loudspeaker with your amp to analyse. my 2cents...

 

T38.45

Hi there  -  agree about your comments about valve amps having this image of warm and a bit slow.I just looked at your profile and see you are a Nagra user.Same here mate have a PLL and its brilliant.Its so engaging to listen to.Find it very 3 dimensional it has 2 ECC 83 and a ECC81 in it.Find with mine its on song after 30 mins after power up.Nagra build is like a fine swiss watch 

How are getting on with your Melody ?

ph1ll posted:

Sorry I thought it would show my setup. It's a Planar 2 with the Rega Fono Mini a2d pre-amp, Unitiqute 2 with some Leema Acoustic Xone speakers. The cart is the standard MM with a carbon needle. 

The system appears to be well matched. 

Few tips / hints:

* Take the Rega power supply and plug into a separate circuit than your Naim. Make sure your Naim is plugged directly into the wall (avoid power conditioners like plague).

* Interconnect is quite vital - see if you can borrow some RCA > Din ones.

* Rega’s like to sit on hard, vibration free surfaces.

* Please ensure that the phono-stage is as far away from your Naim and the turntable

* Have you set antiskating properly?

One thing: Rega’s are not renowned for being warm - they are fast, accurate and a little bit lean on the bass side. 

Adam

Tabby cat posted:

T38.45 posted:

a good tube amp is not romantically "warm", it is very transparent, detailled and open. that's what I learned from Octave Audio, McIntosh, Nagra and some others. Of course, you can tune the character of an amp with different tubes 300B, EL34, KT88 etc....but again, I wouldn't call a tube amp "per se" warm. Guess you have to do a listen for yourself. Try crazy combis like an expensive amp to see what your loudspeakers are able to reproduce and maybe expensive loudspeaker with your amp to analyse. my 2cents...

 

T38.45

Hi there  -  agree about your comments about valve amps having this image of warm and a bit slow.I just looked at your profile and see you are a Nagra user.Same here mate have a PLL and its brilliant.Its so engaging to listen to.Find it very 3 dimensional it has 2 ECC 83 and a ECC81 in it.Find with mine its on song after 30 mins after power up.Nagra build is like a fine swiss watch 

How are getting on with your Melody ?

 

Did change lot of my gear over the years (like many here ;-))) but the Melody is a keeper together with my LP12. My pre and the 250DR are always on, that's the good point about silicon vs tubes. But tube based Nagras are simply wonderful- good choice. Hifi for a lifetime, in 20 years a classic. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

ph1ll posted:

Sorry I thought it would show my setup. It's a Planar 2 with the Rega Fono Mini a2d pre-amp, Unitiqute 2 with some Leema Acoustic Xone speakers. The cart is the standard MM with a carbon needle. 

The system appears to be well matched. 

Few tips / hints:

* Take the Rega power supply and plug into a separate circuit than your Naim. Make sure your Naim is plugged directly into the wall (avoid power conditioners like plague).

* Interconnect is quite vital - see if you can borrow some RCA > Din ones.

* Rega’s like to sit on hard, vibration free surfaces.

* Please ensure that the phono-stage is as far away from your Naim and the turntable

* Have you set antiskating properly?

One thing: Rega’s are not renowned for being warm - they are fast, accurate and a little bit lean on the bass side. 

Adam

Adam's comment +1

Additionally:

* Have you set the tracking force accurately?

* Are you happy with the cartridge geometry?

C.

cat345 posted:

For how long do you have this setup?  A new cartridge and phono preamp take a little time to break in.

The turntable is only a few months old. Not a great deal of use as of yet, maybe 3 hours a week if that. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

ph1ll posted:

Sorry I thought it would show my setup. It's a Planar 2 with the Rega Fono Mini a2d pre-amp, Unitiqute 2 with some Leema Acoustic Xone speakers. The cart is the standard MM with a carbon needle. 

The system appears to be well matched. 

Few tips / hints:

* Take the Rega power supply and plug into a separate circuit than your Naim. Make sure your Naim is plugged directly into the wall (avoid power conditioners like plague).

* Interconnect is quite vital - see if you can borrow some RCA > Din ones.

* Rega’s like to sit on hard, vibration free surfaces.

* Please ensure that the phono-stage is as far away from your Naim and the turntable

* Have you set antiskating properly?

One thing: Rega’s are not renowned for being warm - they are fast, accurate and a little bit lean on the bass side. 

Adam

I'm doing the opposite of almost everything here, so much to learn :/. I have them all plugged into the same extension lead. There are two double sockets close by so will rectify that later. I have used the QED anniversary cables from the speakers to the Unitiqute, but have used an eBay no name for connections elsewhere. The turntable is on an Argos MDF unit (in the middle so probably will flex) sat above the pre amp which sits next to the Naim unit. I think/hope I set the anti skate up correctly. I followed the instructions that came with it and it already seemed to be in place. 

Thank you for your advice, sorry for the complete lack of understanding . 

Phil. 

After doing all of the things mentioned by Adam I would get a better cart. You don’t have to spend a mad amount an Ortofon 2m red is great value and can be upgraded to a 2m blue when it’s time to change stylus. MM too so ok with your stage. 

T38.45 posted:

a good tube amp is not romantically "warm", it is very transparent, detailled and open. that's what I learned from Octave Audio, McIntosh, Nagra and some others. Of course, you can tune the character of an amp with different tubes 300B, EL34, KT88 etc....but again, I wouldn't call a tube amp "per se" warm. Guess you have to do a listen for yourself. Try crazy combis like an expensive amp to see what your loudspeakers are able to reproduce and maybe expensive loudspeaker with your amp to analyse. my 2cents...

Totally agree, but a McIntosh 'transparent, detailed and open'? Where have you heard one?

As for Octave, it's a really great amp and has all the openness and transparency that the McIntosh lacks, in addition to its own: not recommended for a system that, according to the little so far communicated by the OP, sounds a little dry; Nagra is a costly, branded piece of stylish audio that looks very much like lifestyle living room, but sounds objectively good – albeit, again, certainly not warm.

If one is in love with tubes (or is strongly tempted by them, as it happens to all of us sooner or later), there are less costly and perfectly decent alternatives, like Line Magnetics and PrimaLuna. As for myself, the most sweet, detailed, human sound I ever had in my room was an Audio Innovations Classic 25 driving - go figure - a pair of Magneplanar whose model I have forgotten – MG1 perhaps?

Best wishes

M

Also a wall shelf would help, they do come used on eBay but Rega do their own one for a bit over £100.

Can your dealer help you with understanding and setup?

As Chris recommends above, you don’t necessarily need a tube preamp here, you need some help from your dealer. 

ph1ll posted:

I'm doing the opposite of almost everything here, so much to learn :/. I have them all plugged into the same extension lead. There are two double sockets close by so will rectify that later. I have used the QED anniversary cables from the speakers to the Unitiqute, but have used an eBay no name for connections elsewhere. The turntable is on an Argos MDF unit (in the middle so probably will flex) sat above the pre amp which sits next to the Naim unit. I think/hope I set the anti skate up correctly. I followed the instructions that came with it and it already seemed to be in place. 

Thank you for your advice, sorry for the complete lack of understanding . 

 

Phil. 

Phil - as Chris and Richard suggested above - it’s best if you involve your dealer to help you with the setup.

Rega’s antiskating ‘guide’ is not very accurate - best is to use a setup record.
As to interconnects - they are vital - the best ones will be transpartent, the worst ones will choke your system, making it sound lifeless and dull.

unless you have a very good turntable setup and good digital the difference is a myth i have been there....

I can guarantee you one thing in hi-if, if you have a fundamental problem with installation, even the very best gear will fail to play music in a rewarding way. 

From what I can see, your system is a well balanced combination of good components that should play well together. Even the cheapest interconnects will sound quite good. The fact they can be massively improved on doesn’t mean that the basic wire sounds bad because generally it doesn’t.  So forget changing system components....that will just lead to more expense and disappointment. 

From the descriptions you provide I would lay the potential blame for murdering the sound at the door of the extension lead, assuming this is of the generic hardware shop variety. These can be absolute sound killers!  The problem with hi-if is that we are dealing with extremely low currents (cartridge outputs) and rather high currents (mains, amplifier outputs) within the same system. Your extension lead is providing your system’s pathway to earth and is where all the unwanted noise and electrical garbage from each component drains. Cheap extension leads typically provide earth paths of varying impendence leaving each component floating at a slightly different earth potential. This absolutely and utterly kills the sound quality. 

As a first step I would recommend you replace your extension with a ‘hi-fi approved’ extension lead. While these leads may seem expensive vs regular leads, their socket contacts and earth paths have all been carefully optimised to ensure that all connected components play well together. 

Whether or not this brings the full improvement you need is down to whether there are other problems with your set-up but of one thing you can be absolutely sure. No decent hi-fi will sound decent when all the components are connected together electrically through a sub-optimum extension lead, so spend the money on a decent extension lead, then see how your system performs. You’ll either be happy or happier, but at least you’ll know you’ve taken out one major shortcoming of your system set-up and have avoided wasting money swapping out perfectly good components. 

Replace cart with a Nagaoka mp110. Then upgrade the phono pre to a Schiit Mani if still underwhelmed.

Dealer support is an imperative. Budget suggestions to get you started - Whilst the Argos cabinet may not be the best idea, the first thing to check, is the Rega level. The Rega shelf is good, but involves drilling the wall so may not be your first port of call. You have Audio T in Preston, they sell Quadraspire, so may have a Soundstage you could loan, this may help with isolation, you can go from four to three feet which makes levelling easier.

A real budget plinth that works is an Ikea Aptillig bamboo butcher block, even three beech door knobs from a hardware store will make basic feet. I see you are stil waiting for Ikea to get to Preston  though.

Then, you have Richer Sounds who are advertising a Monster power block on clearance for £9.99, I dont know how good it is, but a step up from generic ones, if not, then the Tacima isn't bad whilst you decide how far up the ladder to go. Whilst not revered by all, Russ Andrews does a 60 day return policy.

Either Audio T or Richer Sounds should have Chord C-line, again a loan or return policy?

Good luck.

Of course, I should engage brain, gather the evidence first.

Did you have the Rega demonstrated before purchase, was it enjoyable, exciting?

Then when you took delivery, was the cartridge already installed by the dealer?

We are talking about the current Rega Planar 2 with the RB220 arm and Rega Carbon cartridge?

"As a first step I would recommend you replace your extension with a ‘hi-fi approved’ extension lead"

As a very first step, this. I use a "Graham's Hydra" straight from a radial mains connection.

If you are in the UK and plugging into a ring main, get an electrician to install a separate radial for the Hifi. 

Other than that, keep coming back here and enjoy the learning curve!

*that's how I did it*