The Times They Are a Changing?

No.

Analogue and seperation from digital circuits is in Naim's DNA and if you need a statement of that, look no further than the very analogue Statement S1.

I think the new range shows they are willing to go digital for the lifestyle products and it probably does in fact lend itself to better performance below a certain price point.

Of course Naim could go in a full on digital direction, but then they would not be Naim and such a move would entail dumping a lot of the current customer base in favour of a different type of customer with the exception of egghead customers for which would buy anything with a Naim logo. On the other hand, stranger things have happened. I am aware of companies who have intentionally decided to dump all their customers and chase completely customers in a high risk high reward tactic.

But that just doesn't seem like Naim. Yes they absolutely are in the bsuiness to make money but it can't be their main goal. If it is, it is a stupid business to be in. There are million other easier ways to make more money than being a hi-fi manufacturer. And within the hi-fi industry, making mid-high end components is the least effective way to make money again. If they do it, it would be for the sound.

Yes, I  have never really heard a high end D class amp and so have no idea how they sound. I’ve heard one of the cheap mini digital amps from China and was really surprised that it sounded as good as it did. 

I suppose the reason my little Bose holiday speaker can through out so much sound is because of digital circuitry. It would be interesting to hear a top quality digital amp fed by a top quality digital source. 

Well I think there are some great things out there. You yourself mentioned Linna and Devialet. If all manufacturers felt there was a definitive answer to the overall design ethos they would all make the same thing and that would be pretty boring.

I think some of the high end digital stuff from Linn sounds fantastic. I happen to think the Naim sounds better. Far be it from anyone though to say one view is wrong. Sounds like a Saturday spent in a dealer's dem room may be in your future as you ponder this question.

Incidentally, there are plenty of flat earth analogue makers out there. Just look at all the tube stuff. And PMC decided only last year to enter the electronics market for the first time going full on analgue with their cor integrated. I think the market is telling us it is as diverse as ever; just shrinking a lot overall sadly and that is more to do with changing lifestyles.

I cannot say which format I prefer because as I said haven’t heard a top quality D Class but given that I much prefer Analogue over digital when it comes to sources I’d guess I’d prefer digital. 

Another question is unless you have a digital amp are you really hearing what a digital source can really do?

Great thread Bob,

Can't add much as like you I not very tech savvy but do see the attraction with Devialet as you have massive power in a small 1 box solution.Reading the LP12 thread it did dawn on me we are nearly in 2020 so tech does advance and we can't escape digital even with modern vinyl recordings.Sign of the times I suppose.

FZ presents a worthy case above, except that it's now Vervent Audio Group, Naim being the badge. The baby boomers are the demographic with funds to buy high-end gear, along with the concerns for pure analog replay using A/B amplification. A dying breed, myself included.

Millennial's are the market of the future and while some may spin vinyl, few have regard whether it's coming from a digital source, an analog source, or Class D amplification. Besides, they're buying LPs digitally recorded in the first place. Millennials are seeking small, single boxes from which to stream their music with the Smartphone in command. They've grown-up on MP3s and earbuds, rendering absolute SQ a marginal consideration. A one box soulution, plug-and-play, with seamless apps is the key. Convenience is paramount.

Much as my 22-year-old son appreciates hearing vintage vinyl on my system, I can in no way envision him being concerned with issues of racking, cable dressing, power cords, interconnects, (etc.), or for that matter simply handling/storing my LPs when it comes to immediate music replay. Why would any manufacturer be hedging their bets that some future prosperity lies in investments like the development and sales of Statement? I think Linn and Devialet see the future. Class D amplification, all digital replay, along with room correction.

Time will tell.

If we are truly...as we claim ... audiophiles.. should we even care about how the sound is made?

Surely the only consideration is the sound alone

I would imagine that Naim will have investigated/monitored developments on digital amplification, and IF they consider it even just possible for class D to meet their criteria for amplifiers then in my view it is highly likely that their R&D people will work up some prototypes, if indeed they haven’t already. And if those show promise there would presumably be a lot of work refining to get at least as good at achieving the Naim sound as the current analog amps. So I wouldn’t rule it out - and digital need not be the end of music as people know it!

If it makes the amps more power efficient, that is good. If it makes them cheaper, that is also good, too - for both the customers and Naim (as long as they maintain their margins and/or sell a lot more). And if it makes them smaller, that is good, too. Provided sound quality is right, then what’s not to like?

Naim have been here in the past, albeit in the AV products. The N-Vi used the Tripath (effectively Class D) amps for it's 5 channels.

Regulations on energy efficiency are likely, at least, to move amplifiers away from, for Naim, traditional power supplies. Eventually this may also encourage/force manufacturers toward overall more efficient devices.

Sur l'autre main (en revanche) - if Brexit turns out sufficiently adamantine perhaps we (in Britain at least) can revert to running our music machines off burned bushbabies and coal from Great America.

james n posted:

Naim have been here in the past, albeit in the AV products. The N-Vi used the Tripath (effectively Class D) amps for it's 5 channels.

Yes, and that covered itself in glory - albeit for the initially inadequate power supply.

Customer Services was a hard but satisfying job until that gremlin was thrown into the mix. I am sure lessons have been, and are being, learnt.

Reports show that youngsters are aware that streaming services like Spotify are doing a disservice to the music business, and taking measures to obtain music that lets the Artists take the royalty rather than the CEO of an abstract provider.

I see no reason why small fraction of future generations would not take an interest in fiddling about with cables, racking order and other such esoteric activity involved with hifi.   So not that there won't be a demand for a product.

hifi might go like most other electrical consumer goods and will need to fulfill its function with the least power taken from the grid to reduce climate change.

Maybe that is why many choose to have the fireplace between the speakers, so they can meditate on this aspect whilst releasing gas of the greenhouse.  

Adam Meredith posted:

james n posted:

Naim have been here in the past, albeit in the AV products. The N-Vi used the Tripath (effectively Class D) amps for it's 5 channels.

Yes, and that covered itself in glory - albeit for the initially inadequate power supply.

Customer Services was a hard but satisfying job until that gremlin was thrown into the mix. I am sure lessons have been, and are being, learnt.

I had one. Great picture and sound. Reliability and general functionality was pretty crap.

james n posted:

I had one. Great picture and sound. Reliability and general functionality was pretty crap.

I would have loved (as an all-in-one AV solution) to have owned one but the reality was too Buckaroo for comfort.

Until I (they didn’t seem to care)  could bare it no longer and bought them both Bose wireless speakers my niece and nephew listened to music on their iPhone internal speakers. 

If I thought it would have mattered I may of stretched to something better than a Bose but the fact was it didn’t. 

SQ may one day become an issue once physical discreetness and ease of use have been taken care of but to be honest most of the music I hear them play is played on and recorded on computers so the best way to play it will be via a computer. 

And old farts who care that they can hear Miles Davis suck air into his lungs before blowing his trumpet will be a thing of the past 

Bob the Builder posted:

And old farts who care that they can hear Miles Davis suck air into his lungs before blowing his trumpet will be a thing of the past 

I wouldn't (audibly) hold my breath for that day.

I'd got to the age of 50 before becoming aware of cable dressing being a thing, let alone one worthy of attension, the millenials have a while to go yet, though the way thing are looking they may have to wait for the previous generating to cop it before having enough spare cash for, and somewhere to put, hifi beyond the basic even if they develop the desire for it. I think Muso and Uniti are meant to develop that desire and suck them in but to read the forum is to be led to believe Uniti is the new N-Vi.

Seem like Naim is caught between a rock and a hard place.  Rock = Loyal customers,  Hard Place = Vervent whatever...

Is the very idea of digital such anathema that even without giving it a try loyal customers will remove their loyalty if Naim replace analog equipment with digital? 

Bob the Builder posted:

Until I (they didn’t seem to care)  could bare it no longer and bought them both Bose wireless speakers my niece and nephew listened to music on their iPhone internal speakers. 

If I thought it would have mattered I may of stretched to something better than a Bose but the fact was it didn’t. 

SQ may one day become an issue once physical discreetness and ease of use have been taken care of but to be honest most of the music I hear them play is played on and recorded on computers so the best way to play it will be via a computer. 

And old farts who care that they can hear Miles Davis suck air into his lungs before blowing his trumpet will be a thing of the past 

Well, I have one 20-something son who playes his music either through a £300 pair of headphones he just bought himselph or through a pair of old IMF monitor speakers, so has an appreciation of music sounding better than iPhone internal speaker or earbuds, and I suspect that once other demands on his income diminish he may well improve things - though that could be a while yet (and hopefully even longer until he inherits mine!). 

But his younger 20-something brother, seems to care less about the sound quality. However he is a musician, and it seems that is a not incommon trait.

joerand posted:

FZ presents a worthy case above, except that it's now Vervent Audio Group, Naim being the badge. The baby boomers are the demographic with funds to buy high-end gear, along with the concerns for pure analog replay using A/B amplification. A dying breed, myself included.

Millennial's are the market of the future and while some may spin vinyl, few have regard whether it's coming from a digital source, an analog source, or Class D amplification. Besides, they're buying LPs digitally recorded in the first place. Millennials are seeking small, single boxes from which to stream their music with the Smartphone in command. They've grown-up on MP3s and earbuds, rendering absolute SQ a marginal consideration. A one box soulution, plug-and-play, with seamless apps is the key. Convenience is paramount.

Much as my 22-year-old son appreciates hearing vintage vinyl on my system, I can in no way envision him being concerned with issues of racking, cable dressing, power cords, interconnects, (etc.), or for that matter simply handling/storing my LPs when it comes to immediate music replay. Why would any manufacturer be hedging their bets that some future prosperity lies in investments like the development and sales of Statement? I think Linn and Devialet see the future. Class D amplification, all digital replay, along with room correction.

Time will tell.

Sprawling, complicated Hi-Fi systems appeal to certain personality types, mine included.  My parents and grandparents didn’t care about the hobby of it.

I don’t think it is a generational thing.  I do think there are many more interesting and capable compact solutions now than in the past.  More choice is good IMHO.  

Nick

yeti42 posted:

 I think Muso and Uniti are meant to develop that desire and suck them in but to read the forum is to be led to believe Uniti is the new N-Vi.

Hardly a reliable evidence base - many, like me, are having trouble free enjoyment. There does seem to be an issue with quality control and some people have been unlucky, but the basic design is sound (pun intended). If  you look at all the "Uniti problem" threads, some are not Uniti problems at all e.g. "speaker noise" actually found to come from a Marantz, and the usual dodgy networks causing discovery issues. Other threads refer to minor whinges such as display options which will be fixed with a firmware update, as will a multiroom glitch. There does seem to be an issue with the HDMI facility which is not something that affects me.

It may be that exceptional and excessively pent up demand (due to late release caused by organisational incompetence) has led to some machines being sold that should bever have left the factory but several months now of flat out production means there must be a hell of a lot of Unitis out there and working well. Ths seems to me to be fundamentally different to the N-VI situation which was a design rather than a production problem.

I have pretty decent all-Naim classic system and a Qb. Guess which my son (who is 26) has designs on?

nigelb posted:

I have pretty decent all-Naim classic system and a Qb. Guess which my son (who is 26) has designs on?

I guess that at that age people are often more interested in being light and mobile than anything else.

Innocent Bystander posted:

nigelb posted:

I have pretty decent all-Naim classic system and a Qb. Guess which my son (who is 26) has designs on?

I guess that at that age people are often more interested in being light and mobile than anything else.

Goid point. I had a full Linn system pretty on (teens) because I was more interested in that than a car. But sold the lot at 21 to unburden myself as I found my place in the world. 13 years in hifi wildernes (200 quid Onkyo micro system and mp3 walkman) I did eventually come back to hifi in a big way.

Hifi and audiophilia and serious music listening has always been a niche persuit. Nothing new. But I do feel it is more nice now. A local ex Naim dealer told me the market is 90% second hand now and they gave up trading in new stuff, and that in 30 years, the customer base has become quite grey and literally started dying off.