Naim Nait 5si, lost bass punchiness and PRaT

Posted by: corsuse on 03 February 2018

Hi,

Recently I have bought a Nait 5si amp. When I first connected it to my system I was really impressed. There was lots of bass, and it was tight, punchy and solid with great sense of PRaT.  Then, day after day this initial impression faded away. The bass became weaker, more loose and boomy. I also don't feel this sense of PRaT. I have the amp from 8 days. Initially I was using Neotech loudspeaker cables (2.5m length) and then switched to Chord Rumour 2 (again 2.5m). I thought it might be the Chord cable and turned back to Neotech. I had more bass than with the Chord but again the sound wasn't as good as the first day. I also found that the silver in the Chord Cable added a bit harshness to my system. The rest of my system is the following : 
Source: Google Chromecast Audio - streaming Spotify Premium and a Sony X5000 CD player used as a transport
DAC: Rega DAC-R
Interconnect cable: Chord Clearway
Loudspeakers: Zu Audio Omen Standard

I always keep the amp on. I've read that Naim gear takes some time to burn in properly but day after day I doubt the sound will return its initial form. Is this behaviour normal or something might be wrong? The reason might be the excitement surronding my new gear and getting used to it but who knows.. I have heard a few months ago a Naim UnitiQute2 in a local shop and I also experienced this wonderful bass response and PRaT as the first day I listened to my Nait 5si. The dealer there told me their amp was burned in for around 20 days. Do you think Naim NAC A5 cable can increase my bass response without being harsh?

Posted on: 03 February 2018 by ChrisSU

I would ask your dealer if you can borrow some NACA5, preferably a fair bit longer than the 2.5m you are using, to see if that solves the problem. Also ask him to listen to your system, and help you build a system you enjoy listening to. Some Naim dealers are very good at this, and they are not just there to flog you an expensive box and bank the cash. 

Posted on: 05 February 2018 by HiFiFoFum

Power it down and let it sit for 30 mins 

the Nait could be going microphonic 

when you turn it back on and the bass comes back then let it play till it’s gone again.

If this is the case try putting something like cork under its feet and see if that helps. 

Posted on: 05 February 2018 by Ardbeg10y

Loudspeakercable is indeed an important thing to fix but I've seen a similar thing with a friend of mine on his Cambridge Audio system and it was source related. If you have the possibility, I would also connect an old cd player and see if it behaves the same. Just to ensure you bet on the right horse.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

HIFIFORUM, I tried your test. It doesn't seem the time of amp being powered on affect the bass much - probably the highs get a little bit stronger after some time, but I think the bass is constant

ARDBEG10Y, I connect the amp with the RCA outputs of my CD Player to see the difference. The bass was a little bit tighter but weaker and the highs and vocals less pronounced - as if the dynamic range and the soundstage were supressed. Still didn't get the sound from my first day with this amp.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by james n

I'd put the Chord Rumour cable back into the system, leave the amp to settle in for a couple of weeks and see how you get on. If you're still not happy then I'd follow the advice from CHRISSU in the second post.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Bob the Builder

As above I would get hold of some Nac a5 I know it seems expensive but buy it used on eBay for half of the retail cost. 3.5m pair of Nac a5 will come in at less than £100 as little as £70. 

This cable pairs so well with Naim amps and is tried and tested if you still have the same issues afterwards then I would have it look d at. 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Dave J

8 days is too soon and it needs to be playing music throughout that time, not just be switched on. It needs more time. I am, though, rather surprised you were able specifically to identify the effect of the silver in the Chord cable; if the cables are also new, they will also need time to burn in and will certainly affect the system in the way that you describe when new.

Anyway, I don't think jumping onto Naca5 will necessarily resolve things as the Zu speakers can be quite "pronounced" in their character and I'm not sure that the Naca5 would be a great match - what does your dealer suggest? I do however agree that 3.5m is probably the minimum you should be using.

Is the interconnect RCA to Din and are you using the Din option on the amp?  If not, you might want to look at changing that as that will help, too.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

JAMES IN, For now I left the Chord Rumour 2, since it's superior - more lively, detailed, I only need some more bass punch.

BOB THE BUILDER, I've red some posts for NACA A5 being a bit harsh on some songs and I find the Zus very pronounced in the upper mids/high region and I want more relaxed and mellow sounding vocals and highs. I'd first try to demo one. My dealer suggest going for Chord cables with proper length.

DAVE J, My Chord Rumour 2 is bought second-hand and even the text on it is faded so it should have  been fully burned in. I don't know if it's only because of the silver in the cable but I definitely hear more pronounced highs and better separation between the vocals and the instruments with it. It can also be because it's just on a different level than my Neotech. My interconnect is RCA to RCA. I have never tried DIN connection. I've read the DIN mainly fixes some grounding issues and removes unwanted noise. Does it also add other improvements?

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by hungryhalibut

It may be worth saying that the way the amp sounded when it was brand new is not the way it will sound when it is fully run in. Initially it will sound very perky and impressive, but then will change over time. After a few weeks it will be much more musical and enjoyable. So just play music - you can leave it playing the radio or music on repeat while you are out - and it will come good. 

2.5m cables are too short, and you’d be well advised to get some longer ones. I’ve used Rumour in the past and found the sound a bit thin and weedy. The A5 is more solid sounding and as it’s designed for Naim amps is a safe bet. 

I don’t know if those speakers are easy to drive and whether the Nait is up to the task. You could try moving the speakers around a bit as well. 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

HUNGRYHALIBUT, Thank you for sharing your experience! On the first day of playing I found the sound even too lively and dynamic. The tempo was so fast I had a hard time following it. The bass was very explosive and solid. Then it started sounding more and more relaxed - probably soon it would reveal its true signature as you suggested. Probably everything is OK, I just should fine the right cables. Soon I'll demo some Chord interconnects and speaker cables. I really like their sonic signature, I just should pick the right ones and have them with longer length.   

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by hungryhalibut

The ‘relaxed’ that you describe can border on ‘boring’ and it’s easy to worry about what you’ve bought. I’ve had Naim since 1983 so have learned to just roll with it. I changed my power amp in the autumn and it took ages to sound right. Some days it really sounded pretty bad. 

Don’t get hung up on getting Chord cables. As well as the Rumour I’ve tried Odyssey. I loved it initially but after a few months was listening a lot less and it seemed that the cable was sucking the life from the music. It’s not what your dealer recommends that’s important - it’s what you like that matters. 

You don’t mention your source - that may be relevant too. 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

I included the source in my first post. It's the following:

Source: Google Chromecast Audio - streaming Spotify Premium and a Sony X5000 CD player used as a transport. With both sources the situation is the same.

[@mention:4804681823084713], what cables do you use as interconnet, power cable and  for the loudspeakers? Yes, I agree that too much relaxed is not good at all. It sucks the life from the music. There's a big difference in the tempo and dynamics since the first day. Initially it was too fast, now I find it a bit too relaxed and the bass kind of boomy. It was very very well controlled and cohesive on the first day. I hope to get something in the middle after a couple of months - but a bit more on the fast and dynamic side. 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by hungryhalibut

Spotify via the CCA is always going to sound bad, but the CD player should be fine. I had thought that if it was Naim you would already have the required lead, that was all. You may want to consider finding a used Naim CD player though, which can be found for a good price.

As to what I use, I have Super Lumina and Powerlines, which cost me rather more than I suspect you are looking to spend. I’ve previously used Naim A5 speaker leads for donkey’s years and they are very good. I also like Tellurium Q Black, but I’ve never heard a Chord cable that I really like. Others love them though. It’s all down to personal taste.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Ardbeg10y

To contradict Halibut:

Spotify via the CCA sounds nice. I'm using it into a Chord Mojo, or into the Dac of my SN1.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

[@mention:4804681823084713] I see, you've got a really serious system and yes it's outside my budget. I have connected the CCA via Toslink cable to my Rega DAC and the CD via coaxial cable also to the DAC. I've done direct comparison between the two (switching the DAC inputs from the remote control) playing the same album - one from Spotify and the same release of the album on CD (with 3-4 different albums). The sound was exactly 1:1 without any difference. I doubt my source or the DAC are causing any problems.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Stephen Tate

Hi,

It may be worth contacting your dealer and drawing from their experiences. When I purchased my Nait 5si from new my experience was the opposite to yours in that it all started off a bit flat, lifeless & edgy with a loose detached bass. However, as the days went by everything gelled together into a coherent musical whole and with plenty of punch and a deep taught bass.

I too recommend using NAC A5 speaker cables professionally terminated at the required lengths. 6 meters of NAC A5 per channel sound sweet as on my 5si!

Hope you get it sorted.

 

 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by hungryhalibut

It’s a little odd that Spotify and the CD player sound the same. Spotify is a lossy format and while ok for casual listening is really pretty poor. 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

[@mention:1566878603921935], it's really strange. I observed exactly the opposite. Very dynamic, lively and deep bass representation. On low level listening it has almost no bass, only voices. Now the amp produces bass even on low level but the whole representation is more bass light. I should find NACA 5 for test.

[@mention:4804681823084713] Yes, that's another mystery. Not only spotify uses lossy format my CD transport is of a very high quality. Neverthless, the sound is exactly the same. No difference in details, treble, bass, nothing. Probably the Rega DAC make the two sources equal or I just can't hear the difference between lossy and lossless even on a decent hi-fi system. I'm using a cheap coax cable for the CD player but I doubt better cable will improve the sound in the digital world - sending digits.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by MangoMonkey

8 days? It's normal for naim to sound pretty horrible about a week into the break in process. Try not to fiddle with it for 3 weeks from new. It should settle in by then.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Timo
Hungryhalibut posted:

It’s a little odd that Spotify and the CD player sound the same. Spotify is a lossy format and while ok for casual listening is really pretty poor. 

I guess if lossy Spotify and CD sound the same, one has reached the end of the upgrade ladder... A lot of money saved... 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by corsuse

[@mention:17757776930523932] Probably yes, I should wait a bit to see how it goes.

[@mention:63936634726737555] What do you mean? If I don't hear the difference between lossy and lossless there' s no point in investing in further upgrades? However I can hear the difference between different DACs and cables.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Timo

No offence intended -- just Matthew 7:6 came to my mind...

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Dave J

So there you have it, Corsuse. You’ve got the wrong source, the wrong speaker cable in the wrong length and it looks like no one here, apart from me, has heard Zu speakers. Welcome to the Naim forum! 

Seriously though, don’t get too concerned about naca5, there’s nothing in any way special about them and, given the range of different equipment you use, the outcome would be unpredictable. A friend, Alex, who used to post here many moons ago, uses Zu speakers and he swears by Mogami cable. There are lots of alternatives.

As Mangomonkey suggests, give it more time.

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Brubacca

[@mention:73934387758079327]

 I think that you need to let the system run in.  Is the Rega DAC new also?  Do you leave the Rega powered on all the time?  I find when I used a  Rega DAC, it  sounded better after a week of being left powered on.  

For the two of you who have heard Zu Speakers 

Are they a good match with Naim?  I have been considering a Omen Dirty Weekend to replacd my Dali Zensor Speakers.  I'd be using it with a UnitiQute.  

 

Posted on: 06 February 2018 by Dave J

I’ve not heard them together so couldn’t say from personal experience. I would say though that Zu speakers are very distinctive so you ought to audition them together carefully .