Naim Nait 5si, lost bass punchiness and PRaT

[@mention:1566878603935567], yes, first I'll give the system more time. Zu are really different speakers and seem to be picky with the source, amp, cables. However, they really have a big room-filling sound. They disperse the sound sideways and give sense for a larger soundstage. 

[@mention:30992173575109618] I bought the Rega DAC exactly two months ago. I don't leave it powered on and I use it about 3-4 hours a day. I suppose it should have been fully burned in for 2 months. I can try leaving the DAC on to see if something changes. By the way, I've heard changing the power cable of the Rega makes a big difference, have you tried it?

About the Naim and Zu - I'm new to Naim and haven't found the perfect cables and probably source so I can't give a proper opinion but I think they are a good match. The speakers are very dynamic and detailed and the Naim more forwardness to the soundstage which is already a big one. I like the combination. On some recordings I experience lack of bass and some sound a bit harsh but that can be caused by not having the DAC and amp fully burned in.  I agree with DAVE J that Zu are very different from the others and very distinctive. You should first like their own signature and then decide if to buy them. Powerwise they are easy to be driven so you won't have problems with the UnitiQute I think. But there is one peculiarity. Since the speakers are 12 ohm the UnitiQute would have less efective power. I've been told by the Naim support team that the 60W of my Naim actually turn to be around 35W with the Zus due to the higher impedance. If you don't listen to a lot of heavy bass and on party levels powerwise probably the match would be OK but try to audition the speakers first. 

My experience with the Rega DAC was that it sounded bad when first on.  It definitley hit its stride when left on continuously.  If anything to me the Rega DAC sounded tipped up a bit in the bass so its surprising that you are bass shy with it.  Also the Rega was always harsh in the trebble until it had been on a couple days.  Kind of like, why did I buy this dac.  

If I were you I wouldn't stress to much about cables until after everything has burnt in.  

Personally I use all copper.  I tried a silver interconnect and didn't like it.

I always used the stock rega power cord.

Corsuse,

On what does your gear sit?  Have you a proper rack?  You say the sound changed after a few days.  Has anything changed in your sytem?  Anything at all?

I think you you would really benefit from having your dealer stop by to take a look and have a listen.

Charlie

Are your Zu speakers also new?   From a reviewer:   “Be forewarned: the Omen require — nay, demand — an extensive run-in period, well beyond any 30-day home trial. Forum chatter reflected my experiences – up to 400 hours…and an agonising, send-them-back-at-once run in period.”

could it be the speakers running in?  Or maybe everything...

[@mention:30992173575109618], I listened to your advice and started keeping the Rega always turned on. After about 24 hrs of being powered on I listened to the system and I noticed an enormous change! I haven't changed anything in the system so the only change is the Rega being powered on. I had a lot of more bass. I can hear a lot more bass even on a very low listening level. The amount of bass now is as much as my first listening to the Nait and even a bit more - I hope this tendency to continue and is not a one-day-miracle . The only difference I find between the sound now and on the first day with the Naim is that at first the tempo a was a bit quicker, even exaggerated and now it's more balanced but not too relaxed and laid back. My founding was when being with the Neotech cables (with which I was also on the first day when I bought the amp). Then I decided to switch to the Rumour 2. I didn't find so much difference as previously between the two cables. The vocals and highs were tamed and there was a lot more bass even with it. I felt that some details are a bit muffled and blurred but with every song it seemed the sound to open up without being very harsh as I've found it previously from time to time. I'll see how it goes today. If this behaviour continues the inconsistent behaviour and the lack of bass probably have been produced by the Rega. I find the Rega a little bit warm on the top now and previously it was super cool, even a bit cold. I probably have never left it powered on for long enough and it has never reached its optimal state. I assume it will open up even more after a couple of details and more details would be revealed.

[@mention:1566878603891165] Zu speakers require really lots and lots of time to fully burn in.  According to the Zu support team the Omen especially require around 1000 hours for proper burn in but around 600-700 is OK. I've bought the speakers 5 months ago and I think they have at least 450 hours of playing at home but on a low and moderate levels. So the process in my case might take even longer.  Since I bought the amp the only changes I've made is to play with the toe in of the speakers and moving them back and forth for 1 cm. Really small changes in speaker position. But now with the Rega being  powered on I have a lot more bass than before however I move the speakers. 

I tried a Naim powerline on the DAC-r, absolutely horrible, thin and weedy sounding, the stock cable works just fine. There’s no earth pin on the DAC and only a 2 core cable.

I’ve also had chord clearway and found it rather dull, the Belden 4794R with a BNC to RCA connector at the DAC end at a fraction of the cost was much more satisfying but I feed the DAC from a Naim Core which has a proper 75Ω BNC out, I wouldn’t use it with RCA both ends.

Experiment with the filters on the DAC I found a definite preference.

[@mention:1566878603909035] Interesting, maybe the DAC doesn't benefit from changing the power cord so much. I should test a RCA to DIN connection to see the difference. Personally, I haven't found any difference in the 3 filters so far but I should test them again. 

[@mention:1566878603891165] I forgot to mention that I don't have a special a rack. The gear sits on a regular living room furniture, next to my TV .

corsuse posted:

[@mention:1566878603909035] Interesting, maybe the DAC doesn't benefit from changing the power cord so much. I should test a RCA to DIN connection to see the difference. Personally, I haven't found any difference in the 3 filters so far but I should test them again. 

[@mention:1566878603891165] I forgot to mention that I don't have a special a rack. The gear sits on a regular living room furniture, next to my TV .

Corsuse, I asked about the rack because the sound of gear can be influenced by that.  Since the sound changed a lot (for the worse) did the amp get moved during that time?  We are trying to find what changed to cause the problem.  More important is that the speakers might be the cause of the change. 

If you have been moving the speakers, make sure they sit properly on their feet.  If they can rock or rattle (with one point/foot a bit loose) that could affect PRaT and bass punch.  Grasping at straws here...

[@mention:1566878603891165], yes, I know that the rack can influence the sound. Unfortunately, I don't have a special one. I've moved the amp and inch towards the wall but not moving it on another piece of furniture or on a different height. The speakers are stable and I'm using Soundcare superspikes for them. Today, when I listened to the system, again it had a lot of bass with pleasant balanced vocal and highs. After about 3 hours, the bass gradually faded a bit and the vocals became harsher as before. Again, a different behaviour. The worse thing is that, really, the speakers, the DAC and amp could not have been fully burned in as a whole, not only one of them. I'll wait patiently and play them to see how they behave after a couple of months.

Corsuse, hopefully your system will settle out and provide consistently enjoyabe music.  

Hi all!

I seem to have found a solution for my problem. I demoed Chord Anthem Reference as an interconnect cable and a 3m of Chord Epic Twin for the loudspeakers. The improvements were really big - more openness, detail, bass extension and more bass weight. I really liked how it sounded. The bass was considerably better with these cables - Naim seem to really shine with the right cables. Now that I've bought the interconnect which I really enjoy I'm looking for new loudspeaker cables. Although I really liked the Epic Twin I wonder if Chord Signature (the old plain version) would be an improvement over the Epic. Unfortunately, as far as I know the old Signature is not produced anymore and I can't demoed it from a local dealer. I found a good offer online and that's why it I started considering it as an option. It has a bigger gauge over the Epic Twin - 10 vs 12 which I assume can bring even more bass, however the Signature is not silver coated as opposed to the Epic Twin. Have someone of you experience with the two cables? Would the Signature be an overall improvement over the Epic Twin and would the lack of silver coating can have some impact on the details and the highs extension?

FWIW I preferred my 5 mtr lenght Epic agains a 3 mtr pair Signature

Perhaps the lenght played a role

Epic has the same copper cable as Odyssey but with other surroundings

Again your Rumour is similar but slightly less cores

Plugs and solder are important

Any Nait 5 need a good volume to sound best, they are a bit muffled at low level but indeed a great amp

The original Rega Klotz interconnect were great on my Dac, available cheap from Bay with other plugs, an excellent uncoloured cable I sometime prefer against my Cobra

[@mention:71539985856971885], Thank you for your opinion! I tested Chord Clearway, Shawline and Epic Twin speaker cables all of them with 3m lengths. All of them had a more relaxed feeling and better bass than my 2.5m Rumour 2, with Epic Twin being the one with most details and bigger soundstage.  

And yes, the Nait 5si likes to be a bit cranked up to really shine and open up.

corsuse posted:

Hi all!

I seem to have found a solution for my problem. I demoed Chord Anthem Reference as an interconnect cable and a 3m of Chord Epic Twin for the loudspeakers. The improvements were really big - more openness, detail, bass extension and more bass weight. I really liked how it sounded. The bass was considerably better with these cables - Naim seem to really shine with the right cables. Now that I've bought the interconnect which I really enjoy I'm looking for new loudspeaker cables. Although I really liked the Epic Twin I wonder if Chord Signature (the old plain version) would be an improvement over the Epic. Unfortunately, as far as I know the old Signature is not produced anymore and I can't demoed it from a local dealer. I found a good offer online and that's why it I started considering it as an option. It has a bigger gauge over the Epic Twin - 10 vs 12 which I assume can bring even more bass, however the Signature is not silver coated as opposed to the Epic Twin. Have someone of you experience with the two cables? Would the Signature be an overall improvement over the Epic Twin and would the lack of silver coating can have some impact on the details and the highs extension?

If you didn't try you wouldn't know. Apparently it's not the Nait 5SI that needs some time to break in but the speaker cable that's the culprit to the less than stellar performance you were experiencing.

Although the Chord Signature speaker cable may not sound as good as the Epic Twin, it's a bit of an overkill for the Nait 5SI. There are other cables that may sound more open, detailed or transparent than the Epic Twin but some of the bass punch or extension may be lost with the added openness, and they often come with a higher price tag. The Epic Twin is actually a rather good cable as (in my system) it offers slightly more refinement and detail than the NAC A5 without losing much of the boogie factor.

My advice is to enjoy the music with the Nait 5SI  and Epic Twin as is.

Enjoy~

[@mention:1566878604025788] Thank you for the comment! Actually I don't have the Epic Twin, I'm still with the Rumour 2 which was already burned in. So that's way I am wondering which cable to buy the Epic Twin which I liked or to have a risk with the Signature.   I had a very solid and weighty bass with the Epic so I probably should go with a longer length of an Epic than a 3m of Signature. 

Or go in the middle with Epic Reference?

corsuse posted:

 Naim seem to really shine with the right cables. 

Hi,

It can be quite a slippery slope trying lots of different cables, if you have found some that work, all well and good but have you tried NAC A5 just to be sure?

[@mention:1566878603921935], I've not tried NAC A5, but I really liked the Epic Twin, so you are right I should probably stick with something I made sure worked for me.

Hi again, as I was thinking everything settled in here we go again..

When I wrote the bass came into place it seems to have been a momentary period. The bass was really solid and weighty but the vocals and highs a bit muffled. After that, increasingly the bass started to disappear and the mids and highs really opened up. Now the sound stucked on this pase for about a week  - open, detailed mids and highs but very thin bass and also the mids and highs sound really metallic and very harsh. At moment the sound is not listenable. My room acoustics are not perfect but I don't think this is the issue since the speakers have sounded verry mellow and pleasant with other configurations - even with the Naim on some moments. The harhsness and metallic feel increases as I raise the volume up. I'm experiencing this transisition with my current cables - Chord Anthem Reference and 2.5 meters of Chord Rumour 2. I'm going to buy a proper lenght of Chord cable and upgrade mine soon but I started worrying if everything is OK with my amp. 

In addition, I know it's normal for Naim to have a mechanical noise from their power transformers, however my amp has neved produced such a noise - even from 1-2 inches. Is every Naim supposed to have such a sound or I'm just lucky?

Hi,

I've just googled up your speakers and read a very interesting review on them (as I have not heard of Zu Omen before) and they certainly sound like a very capable pair of speakers indeed.  

As already mentioned above - I would certainly hunt down some NAC A5 at the required lengths professionally terminated by your dealer. One should not have to keep faffing around with different cables to become satisfied with the sound, it detracts from the music.  Once the system has warmed up the sound should stay consistent with no big variation swings as you are describing above.

I have ran a NAIT 5si for three years now and to me it is a very well balanced amplifier with no over brightness or harshness to it's sound. I can only guess that either you're experiencing connection problems or the Chord cables are just too bright in conjunction with your speakers...?  Make sure all your connections are clean and fully inserted with no stress on the cables themselves and to check that all polarities are correct. If still no luck then i reckon your best bet from here on is pay a visit to your dealer and hear what they can suggest - even borrow some NAC A5?

You really should try NAC A5. It’s the cable naim used to build and test the Nait 5si so you should at least try it. Can you borrow some from your dealer?