ND555

Bob the Builder posted:

I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

I never find this line of argument terribly convincing. Does your streaming solution sound three times better than a Raspberry PI/Chord Mojo solution for about a third of the price? I doubt it -- but how do you then justify the additional expense??!!

I think we should recognise Bob the Builder's point re cost v performance but everything in life is relative and ultimately 'yer pays yer money and make your choice'. I have friends who've run dragster racing cars, where incremental gains in run time (think ~1/4 second - if not smaller) are only achieved via an exponential increase in costs. 

Please tell me if I'm wrong in this but don't some other manu's at this level of the market (i.e. NDS) offer an upgrading service for their kit which it strikes me won't be (highly unlikely to be?) an option with the new ND555 vis existing NDS - assuming the latter materialises. 

Bob the Builder posted:

This all depends on what you are used to I suppose but for me it is a vast amount of money to spend. I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

It really brings home the HIFI world I find myself in and the forum on which I post and what good £14 or £20,000 could do in the real world. 

Given that improvement in sound quality in hifi tends to follow something like an exponential price curve, no it won’t be 10x better (whatever that actually means), but I guess  maybe 3-4 distinct increments better - and that of course is in the same stable, which might not relate at all to comparisons with different brands.

All most of us can do is recognise our maximum level of expenditure, and maximise what we can get for it - and if that feels limiting then there is always the consoling thought that the exponential price curve means that those who could afford 10x what we can, only get slightly better sound (ignoring the inevitable superlatives cast around). Value for money, on the other hand, is in the eyes of the beholder - which might be anywhere on the price curve - and of course maximising sound quality for a given expenditure, or minimising cost for a certain level of sound quality, is why some people pick and choose between varous products including across different brands.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

This all depends on what you are used to I suppose but for me it is a vast amount of money to spend. I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

It really brings home the HIFI world I find myself in and the forum on which I post and what good £14 or £20,000 could do in the real world. 

Given that improvement in sound quality in hifi tends to follow something like an exponential price curve, no it won’t be 10x better (whatever that actually means), but I guess  maybe 3-4 distinct increments better - and that of course is in the same stable, which might not relate at all to comparisons with different brands.

All most of us can do is recognise our maximum level of expenditure, and maximise what we can get for it - and if that feels limiting then there is always the consoling thought that the exponential price curve means that those who could afford 10x what we can, only get slightly better sound (ignoring the inevitable superlatives cast around). Value for money, on the other hand, is in the eyes of the beholder - which might be anywhere on the price curve - and of course maximising sound quality for a given expenditure, or minimising cost for a certain level of sound quality, is why some people pick and choose between varous products including across different brands.

I guess spending more and more on Hifi is about increasing the enjoyment of music. And as IB writes, value for money is a very personal judgement; and I feel it is inappropriate to judge those you spend "crazy" amounts of money -- in my world, 552, 500, ND555 etc fall into the "crazy" category in light of my income, financial obligations, and "cloth ears". I couldn't justify these amounts of monies for hifi. Having said this, if I inherited a sh*** load of money (which will not happen!), I would be very tempted by the 552, 500, ND555 etc... Plus a few fancy wires exceeding the value of Bob's entire system...   

Alba1320 posted:

Personally, as someone with no interest in computer audio (CA), I was hoping, though not realistically expecting, a DAC555; Not only would that mean that I, and those of similar persuasion, wouldn't have to pay for unnecessary 'gubbins', but those who are interested in CA, could choose the particular box that did what they wanted, and leave Naim to concentrate on the important bit i.e. changing digits into music.

I understand what you are saying. Maybe a stand alone higher level DAC will spin off? However, to be pedantic, a 500 level DAC will be available soon (ish) - with a streamer in the same box. OK, it'll cost more, but it will be out there on the shelves.

I think Naim have a big challenge ahead on to convince most of us that anything significant can be gained above NDS level for the money being asked. Mind you, that kind of approach didn't hurt the CD555 and if anyone is up to pulling it off, Naim are a strong contender.

Value? As subjective as anything else HiFi. Not so long ago a 252/300 fronted by a CDS3 was our lottery winnings system, and unattainable by any practical measure (not least because we don't do the lottery). Things change, and not necessarily for the better. The line in the sand is different for everyone. Which is how it should be.

I want more people to buy more £100K cars and hang another 20% worth of options on them.  How else will I be able to buy them for buttons  five years later?

If naim use dac's from 2010 it's usless, i didn't see any specifications on boards they use. The look is naim classic which is old and new in the same time, nothing is changed.

The reason I don't own a set of S1 Power amps is cost, not that I think 500DR is about the same performance. I need a minimum or four power amp mono-blocks to remain Active, which I prefer.

But when I hear the S1 Power Amp passive system playing music at the same moderate level at my Dealer and well within what the 500DR can manage it is clear to my ears that the S1 Power Amp is not just a more powerful version of the 500DR, but does things differently in character musically.

I did discuss the S1 system, both Pre and Power with the Designer a few years ago at a show for nearly an hour, as I also used to hobby-build amplifiers and have some background in design-specifics. The S1 Power Amp is a fundamentally different design with far lower if any overall multi-stage feedback whereas the 500DR uses high feedback - they both sound very different to me and if I could afford it I'd have the S1 Power Amps.

What amazes me is how far the 500DR increased in performance towards the S1 Power Amp after the DR updates, but it is well-short of the S1 Power Amp. But in my opinion a passive S1 system does not do what and Active 500DR system does in terms of speed and immediacy - but it does do other musical things that I'd value having, if I could afford the outlay.

But in the context of this thread, the ND555 may be where any funds would better be spent, as 'source first' would be where I'd expect any improvements to come more for me. As I have said before, the CD555 vs NDS demo in my system was not sufficiently conclusive - the CD555 was more authoritative with better handling of percussion and dynamics and musical insight for me - but the NDS did have other musical aspects done better in terms of mid-band detail and genuinely seamless presentation which I could get used to having.

For me if I hear the ND555 fully eclipse the CD555 performance in no uncertain terms then I'm very interested in it. I'd also get a demo of it against the best state of the art DAC system my Dealer can put together to hear what each does before making my decisions. If I can spend the same or less money and get better from a non-Naim source then that is where I'd go, but I've got to hear it done to my own satisfaction and not to anyone else.

Interesting times - can't wait to hear it, but Naim are right to get it right first!
As an aside I also hope Naim use copious extra mass-damping inside the new ND555 box, as I have a strong suspicion it really helps the CD555 performance in some key areas I value. The box size looks too neat - I hope it is unusually heavy.

DB.

Alba1320 posted:

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Me neither. But there will be fun ahead.

Stefan - we will know when we know. It's going to be sound quality/musical enjoyment for many people that determines it.  The technical specification will doubtless be a function of its performance but chosen/customised on the basis to its ability to communicate musically. 

Lots of really good DACs still alive and well from the 1980s in circulation. I sold one on a couple of years back and it fetched good money. You could even argue that in sound quality terms (as distinct from functionality), all the really heavy lifting in DACs was done 30-40 years ago and today's innovations are to a big extent, just marketing - with some notably superb exceptions. Same as ever really.

Gazza posted:

tonym posted:

Chris Bell posted:

Couple of thoughts: 

First, I'm surprised there's no Statement streamer.  I've always found it odd seeing a Fraim stack next to the 3 monoliths... never worked for me. Second, I'm surprised they've gone with the classic styling.  Not that I really care, I figured Naim was moving on much like when they abandoned the olive look.  I do think a ND555 in the new style would look quite elegant.  Wonder when Naim will pull the plug on classic styling?  Hoping the ND555 will use the 555 power supplies... I own 2 and making the jump will be much easier, but I would not be surprised if Naim had a new super-555 PS in the works.  I hope the new streamer has a network switch in it.  It kills me that we have all this well engineered equipment and I have to use a cheap ethernet switch box with a noisy wall-wart power supply.  Fix this Naim!

Finally, I know there is quite a debate on the CD555 vs NDS.  All I can say is I think the NDS sounds much better, but streaming is as tweaky as my LP12.  I've had to use fancy Chord ethernet cables, linear power supplies for the NAS/UnitiServe and a second 555DR PS to get the most out of the NDS.  Its been an education, but digital has never sounded better.  I'm eager to get a ND555 into my system to hear what's missing... I'm making such great sound right now.  

 

  

Naim are masters at analogue amps and preamps, but when it comes to digital I don't think they can compete so well. To put a digital streamer in the "Statement" category it's got to be able to distance itself sufficiently from the NDS, in the same degree that the S1 preamp does from the 552 (although I'm not so sure the S1 power amp's sufficiently better than the 500DR to justify its status and price) and I don't think that's feasible. I'm also a bit uncomfortable about Naim relying on the quality of customer's individual networking systems to deliver files that aren't going to compromise the performance of the new streamer. You've only got to read a few postings on here to see the problems folk have with their networks to appreciate this. I accept a small amount of tweaking will be needed, but it really shouldn't be the problem it appears to be. Give me the Melco/DAC solution every time.

Tony, do you use the Melco to stream Tidal which I believe it can now act as a mini streamer. If so is it say to use and does it sound OK.

Gazza

Hi Gazza, no, not tried Tidal. I'm not really interested in listening to my music in that way.

tonym posted:

Gazza posted:

tonym posted:

Chris Bell posted:

Couple of thoughts: 

First, I'm surprised there's no Statement streamer.  I've always found it odd seeing a Fraim stack next to the 3 monoliths... never worked for me. Second, I'm surprised they've gone with the classic styling.  Not that I really care, I figured Naim was moving on much like when they abandoned the olive look.  I do think a ND555 in the new style would look quite elegant.  Wonder when Naim will pull the plug on classic styling?  Hoping the ND555 will use the 555 power supplies... I own 2 and making the jump will be much easier, but I would not be surprised if Naim had a new super-555 PS in the works.  I hope the new streamer has a network switch in it.  It kills me that we have all this well engineered equipment and I have to use a cheap ethernet switch box with a noisy wall-wart power supply.  Fix this Naim!

Finally, I know there is quite a debate on the CD555 vs NDS.  All I can say is I think the NDS sounds much better, but streaming is as tweaky as my LP12.  I've had to use fancy Chord ethernet cables, linear power supplies for the NAS/UnitiServe and a second 555DR PS to get the most out of the NDS.  Its been an education, but digital has never sounded better.  I'm eager to get a ND555 into my system to hear what's missing... I'm making such great sound right now.  

 

  

Naim are masters at analogue amps and preamps, but when it comes to digital I don't think they can compete so well. To put a digital streamer in the "Statement" category it's got to be able to distance itself sufficiently from the NDS, in the same degree that the S1 preamp does from the 552 (although I'm not so sure the S1 power amp's sufficiently better than the 500DR to justify its status and price) and I don't think that's feasible. I'm also a bit uncomfortable about Naim relying on the quality of customer's individual networking systems to deliver files that aren't going to compromise the performance of the new streamer. You've only got to read a few postings on here to see the problems folk have with their networks to appreciate this. I accept a small amount of tweaking will be needed, but it really shouldn't be the problem it appears to be. Give me the Melco/DAC solution every time.

Tony, do you use the Melco to stream Tidal which I believe it can now act as a mini streamer. If so is it say to use and does it sound OK.

Gazza

Hi Gazza, no, not tried Tidal. I'm not really interested in listening to my music in that way.

Thanks Tony

Timo posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

This all depends on what you are used to I suppose but for me it is a vast amount of money to spend. I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

It really brings home the HIFI world I find myself in and the forum on which I post and what good £14 or £20,000 could do in the real world. 

Given that improvement in sound quality in hifi tends to follow something like an exponential price curve, no it won’t be 10x better (whatever that actually means), but I guess  maybe 3-4 distinct increments better - and that of course is in the same stable, which might not relate at all to comparisons with different brands.

All most of us can do is recognise our maximum level of expenditure, and maximise what we can get for it - and if that feels limiting then there is always the consoling thought that the exponential price curve means that those who could afford 10x what we can, only get slightly better sound (ignoring the inevitable superlatives cast around). Value for money, on the other hand, is in the eyes of the beholder - which might be anywhere on the price curve - and of course maximising sound quality for a given expenditure, or minimising cost for a certain level of sound quality, is why some people pick and choose between varous products including across different brands.

I guess spending more and more on Hifi is about increasing the enjoyment of music. And as IB writes, value for money is a very personal judgement; and I feel it is inappropriate to judge those you spend "crazy" amounts of money -- in my world, 552, 500, ND555 etc fall into the "crazy" category in light of my income, financial obligations, and "cloth ears". I couldn't justify these amounts of monies for hifi. Having said this, if I inherited a sh*** load of money (which will not happen!), I would be very tempted by the 552, 500, ND555 etc... Plus a few fancy wires exceeding the value of Bob's entire system...   

 Yes you are both right I have work colleagues who would think I was mad spending the money I have and as you say the money I have spent on hifi is a few fancy cables to someone else and of course this relative. 

Harry posted:

Which real world would that be Bob? Yours or mine?

The one where over a quarter of all children in the U.K are living in poverty and where the minimum annual wage is about £14,000 and that is both mine and your world. 

 the differences will be v small.  if we apply a little logic .  every  upgrade may be different but is it better .   the top unit should be in a new modern design    the  old classic is not it.   

That's the second time in a week someone has used this forum as a vehicle to exploit disadvantaged children as some sort of battering ram. It's wicked. It's disgusting. 

Timo posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

I never find this line of argument terribly convincing. Does your streaming solution sound three times better than a Raspberry PI/Chord Mojo solution for about a third of the price? I doubt it -- but how do you then justify the additional expense??!!

Your argument is even less convincing because I paid £300 more than a mojo would have cost so about 80% and the ND555 if it came out tomorrow and didn’t need a psu would cost £13,000 more than my 2qute so about 1,300 %.  

Bob the Builder posted:

Harry posted:

Which real world would that be Bob? Yours or mine?

The one where over a quarter of all children in the U.K are living in poverty and where the minimum annual wage is about £14,000 and that is both mine and your world. 

Fair point! I teach Social Policy at university, and I agree that it is rather upsetting how some of the weakest members of society are treated... But that brings us into the Padded Cell...

Bob the Builder posted:

Timo posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

I never find this line of argument terribly convincing. Does your streaming solution sound three times better than a Raspberry PI/Chord Mojo solution for about a third of the price? I doubt it -- but how do you then justify the additional expense??!!

Your argument is even less convincing because I paid £300 more than a mojo would have cost so about 80% and the ND555 if it came out tomorrow and didn’t need a psu would cost £13,000 more than my 2qute so about 1,300 %.  

Well, re-read my post. Confused.com, I fear...

Revolting how people use children as weapons.

Makes me sick.

Bob, take your £15K, donate it to a children's charity and stop trying to shame people you know nothing about.

I look forward to hearing the ND555 in due course. 

Sorry for the sideways yank. I won't let such wonton wickedness go unrebuked. And that's enough from me.

Order Order!

Harry posted:

Revolting how people use children as weapons.

Makes me sick.

Bob, take your £15K, donate it to a children's charity and stop trying to shame people you know nothing about.

I look forward to hearing the ND555 in due course. 

Sorry for the sideways yank. I won't let such wonton wickedness go unrebuked. And that's enough from me.

Thats rather an overblown reply Harry.  I wasn't rtrying to shame anyone you asked a rather pointed question and received a pointed response. 

Bob the Builder posted:

This all depends on what you are used to I suppose but for me it is a vast amount of money to spend. I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

It really brings home the HIFI world I find myself in and the forum on which I post and what good £14 or £20,000 could do in the real world. 

Yeah the ND555 is likely $20k in US dollars plus power supply!  And that is up there . There have been rumors of new power supply too!  Wonder if that would be released at the same time ? 

I am listening my Cd2x with my new Japanese super magic cds that I bought, sounds very good...

do I need a nd555? Or a nac552?

i don’t but I want it 

musicfan51 posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

This all depends on what you are used to I suppose but for me it is a vast amount of money to spend. I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

It really brings home the HIFI world I find myself in and the forum on which I post and what good £14 or £20,000 could do in the real world. 

Yeah the ND555 is likely $20k in US dollars plus power supply!  And that is up there . There have been rumors of new power supply too!  Wonder if that would be released at the same time ? 

There must be some sort of power supply built in, as it has an on/off switch.

ChrisSU posted:

musicfan51 posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

This all depends on what you are used to I suppose but for me it is a vast amount of money to spend. I cannot imagine what £14,000 (plus psu) should sound like. Should it or will it sound 10 or 15 x better than my own rrp £1,400 streaming solution. 

It really brings home the HIFI world I find myself in and the forum on which I post and what good £14 or £20,000 could do in the real world. 

Yeah the ND555 is likely $20k in US dollars plus power supply!  And that is up there . There have been rumors of new power supply too!  Wonder if that would be released at the same time ? 

There must be some sort of power supply built in, as it has an on/off switch.

Maybe it’s a dummy

Alba1320 posted:

While it's the musical performance that matters, I'm pleased that Naim has done as promised, and retained the current separates' look; infinitely preferable to the 'fugly chic' of Uniti, IMO.

Personally, as someone with no interest in computer audio (CA), I was hoping, though not realistically expecting, a DAC555; Not only would that mean that I, and those of similar persuasion, wouldn't have to pay for unnecessary 'gubbins', but those who are interested in CA, could choose the particular box that did what they wanted, and leave Naim to concentrate on the important bit i.e. changing digits into music. Perhaps because I have no interest in such things, and consequently pay little attention to it,  I may have an unfair impression, but It seems that there is little but moaning about glitches/reliability, missing functions/services etc., which, at best, suggests that CA is something of a moving target (and at worst, something that Naim isn't great at?), so why bother?

Still, I may give ND555 a try, to see if they have managed to provide a substantial musical improvement over their top CD players, and I suppose that it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they might 'spin off' a DAC555 from the development of ND555? (yeah, right!)

 

I'm like-minded. Having previously compared a NDS/555PSDR against my nDAC/555PSDR, firstly using the NDS as a DAC and then in full streaming mode, I still preferred my nDAC being fed from CDX2.2/XP5XS. While I remain open-minded and might consider switching to streaming if the performance was significantly better than my current set, I'll also be interested to see whether this ND555 can be used as just a DAC and, if so, how it compares to the nDAC/555PSDR.