Witch hat din-xlr cables for nap500

Chris Dolan posted:

What I really don’t understand is that in my system when I had extended home trials of various cables I found the Super Lumina to be disappointingly constrained and homogeneous. Pleasant enough but uninspiring and not really involving.  Strange. 

Me too.

Huge posted:

analogmusic posted:

I would just get the original Naim DIN/XLR cables.

You're not going to get the benefit of your 500 by using third party cables.

It seems a pity to me to buy a 500 DR only to undermine the sound by using non-naim cables in this critical place.

I've tried a few non-naim ones and went back to the Naim stock DIN/XLR.

I had a similar experience to Chris Bell. 

 

So, on the basis of "I've tried a few non-naim ones and went back to the Naim stock DIN/XLR.", you state that "You're not going to get the benefit of your 500 by using third party cables."

A bit like "Some men are rapists, therefore all men are rapists."

Your logic doesn't hold.

 

Huge,

Have you made up a set of Din XLRs? If so, I'd be interested to know how you found them in comparison to the standard items.

I have 4 sets (if you include the Naim originals, which I didn't make!).

To my ears (with my speakers, in my room!) I found the Mogami W2497 to be the best cable between the 272/555 and 300DR.
To be fair I haven't compared them to SL or Chord Sarum (any variant) or Music.

I posted the relevant links above.

Chris Dolan posted:

What I really don’t understand is that in my system when I had extended home trials of various cables I found the Super Lumina to be disappointingly constrained and homogeneous. Pleasant enough but uninspiring and not really involving.  Strange. 

Superlumina cables can take at least 200 hours of playing time to run in.

Once they are

But I do understand, it's a personal choice, depending on room, system, speakers and that huge variable - personal perception.

Huge posted:

 

 

So, on the basis of "I've tried a few non-naim ones and went back to the Naim stock DIN/XLR.", you state that "You're not going to get the benefit of your 500 by using third party cables."

A bit like "Some men are rapists, therefore all men are rapists."

Your logic doesn't hold.

 

Agreed, but we seem to be going back to the concept of N.I.P

Naim intended performance.

That's what I want.

If others want to change the performance characteristics of their Naim kit, hey ho - feel free to do  what pleases your ears

I haven't got the funds, money, time to check out each DIN/XLR cable, I just choose to use the cables Naim have used to design the amplifiers after being disappointed a number of times.

These include a number of SNAIC cables and other stuff we are not allowed to discuss, so that's my experience and opinion.

analogmusic posted:

<snip>

Agreed, but we seem to be going back to the concept of N.I.P

Naim intended performance.

That's what I want.

 <snip>

But N.I.P. is a moving target.

The Lavender is supplied with the CD5Si all the way to the NDS.  Do they all have the same N.I.P.?

The DIN to XLR is supplied with the 300 and the 500 (and the same construction is used for the 250, just with 1 wire not connected), do these all have the same N.I.P.?

All systems are a balance of sound that's an engineering compromise with component altering the sound in a different way, and this applies to Naim as much as any other manufacturer.  So, if N.I.P. covers a range of balances, and another cable shifts that balance a little, but still stays within the bounding limits of one Naim system or another, is that not still N.I.P.?

What about changing speakers?  They have such a dramatic effect on the balance of the sound; surely to remain with the limits of N.I.P. we must use Naim speakers, otherwise we'll be completely outside of the limits of N.I.P..  If we can change speakers to those of another manufacturer and remain within N.I.P. than surely we can change to a different manufacturer's CD player (or amp...   or cables!).

P.S. I understand the principle, I just think your expression of your approach is far too dogmatic.

 

But N.I.P. is a moving target.

The Lavender is supplied with the CD5Si all the way to the NDS.  Do they all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

The DIN to XLR is supplied with the 300 and the 500 (and the same construction is used for the 250, just with 1 wire not connected), do these all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

 

All systems are a balance of sound that's an engineering compromise with component altering the sound in a different way, and this applies to Naim as much as any other manufacturer.  So, if N.I.P. covers a range of balances, and another cable shifts that balance a little, but still stays within the bounding limits of one Naim system or another, is that not still N.I.P.?

No, it is not. Please read the comments I posted above about loss of tension and leading edge, and a certain softness to the sound. It is why I understand that Naim never made a Hi-line DIN/XLR.

What about changing speakers?  They have such a dramatic effect on the balance of the sound; surely to remain with the limits of N.I.P. we must use Naim speakers, otherwise we'll be completely outside of the limits of N.I.P..  If we can change speakers to those of another manufacturer and remain within N.I.P. than surely we can change to a different manufacturer's CD player (or amp...   or cables!).

that's debatable, some speakers do in fact cloak and choke the Naim intended performance. 

P.S. I understand the principle, I just think your expression of your approach is far too dogmatic.

Maybe, some things like speakers are debatable, some issues like PSU are not.

There's a very good reason for that, and as I said, what I want is to hear what Salisbury designed so carefully. Others may  like another sound. 

to be clear I am talking about a Naim amplifier as a component. Not a source or a speaker.

In case it is pointed out I use Chord DAC and Dynaudio speakers, I would say agree, it is a dilution of the Naim intended performance. But that's ok with me, as I like the performance of Chord DACs and Dynaudio speakers.

 Anyway - where is the Naim turntable - before the appearance of Naim CD players?

And also most of the Naim sound comes from the amplifier, that's what I hear. My opinion.

Brenda from Bristol has been asked if there should be another cable thread on the naim audio forum...

MangoMonkey posted:

I need to get new din/xlr cables for the nap500. 

Don'twant to do superlumina yet (and not doing anything else fancy/expensive - will do superlumina eceneventu).

Are the witch hat ones comparable in quality to standard naim ones? Anyone with direct experience?

I got a Witch Hat 4 pin to go between (your old) DAC V1 and 110 and it was a night and day difference from a Naim black. I’m going to need longer speaker cable runs soon, and I won’t hesitate to use the Witch Hat. Real quality stuff for not a lot of money. 

Huge posted:

analogmusic posted:

I would just get the original Naim DIN/XLR cables.

You're not going to get the benefit of your 500 by using third party cables.

It seems a pity to me to buy a 500 DR only to undermine the sound by using non-naim cables in this critical place.

I've tried a few non-naim ones and went back to the Naim stock DIN/XLR.

I had a similar experience to Chris Bell. 

 

So, on the basis of "I've tried a few non-naim ones and went back to the Naim stock DIN/XLR.", you state that "You're not going to get the benefit of your 500 by using third party cables."

A bit like "Some men are rapists, therefore all men are rapists."

Your logic doesn't hold.

 

In cable threads, Analogmusic hasn't displayed much logic in recent times -- just copy and paste across threads... Quite boring actually to hear the same sweeping comments again and again...

No logic needed

just ask naim... they make the amplifier 

I was responding to mango monkeys query anyway

analogmusic posted:

No logic needed

just ask naim... they make the amplifier

#FallingAsleep...

analogmusic posted:

 

But N.I.P. is a moving target.

The Lavender is supplied with the CD5Si all the way to the NDS.  Do they all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

The DIN to XLR is supplied with the 300 and the 500 (and the same construction is used for the 250, just with 1 wire not connected), do these all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

 

All systems are a balance of sound that's an engineering compromise with component altering the sound in a different way, and this applies to Naim as much as any other manufacturer.  So, if N.I.P. covers a range of balances, and another cable shifts that balance a little, but still stays within the bounding limits of one Naim system or another, is that not still N.I.P.?

No, it is not. Please read the comments I posted above about loss of tension and leading edge, and a certain softness to the sound. It is why I understand that Naim never made a Hi-line DIN/XLR.

What about changing speakers?  They have such a dramatic effect on the balance of the sound; surely to remain with the limits of N.I.P. we must use Naim speakers, otherwise we'll be completely outside of the limits of N.I.P..  If we can change speakers to those of another manufacturer and remain within N.I.P. than surely we can change to a different manufacturer's CD player (or amp...   or cables!).

that's debatable, some speakers do in fact cloak and choke the Naim intended performance. 

P.S. I understand the principle, I just think your expression of your approach is far too dogmatic.

Maybe, some things like speakers are debatable, some issues like PSU are not.

There's a very good reason for that, and as I said, what I want is to hear what Salisbury designed so carefully. Others may  like another sound. 

to be clear I am talking about a Naim amplifier as a component. Not a source or a speaker.

In case it is pointed out I use Chord DAC and Dynaudio speakers, I would say agree, it is a dilution of the Naim intended performance. But that's ok with me, as I like the performance of Chord DACs and Dynaudio speakers.

 Anyway - where is the Naim turntable - before the appearance of Naim CD players?

And also most of the Naim sound comes from the amplifier, that's what I hear. My opinion.

Let me try a simpler paradigm...

If, hypothetically speaking, someone, for instance, found a cable with characteristics precisely in between the standard N.I.P. black cable, and the (presumably also N.I.P.) Super Lumina cable, would that not also be N.I.P.?

Maybe we should NIP this argument in the bud before we all doze off.

Huge posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

But N.I.P. is a moving target.

The Lavender is supplied with the CD5Si all the way to the NDS.  Do they all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

The DIN to XLR is supplied with the 300 and the 500 (and the same construction is used for the 250, just with 1 wire not connected), do these all have the same N.I.P.?

Yes

 

All systems are a balance of sound that's an engineering compromise with component altering the sound in a different way, and this applies to Naim as much as any other manufacturer.  So, if N.I.P. covers a range of balances, and another cable shifts that balance a little, but still stays within the bounding limits of one Naim system or another, is that not still N.I.P.?

No, it is not. Please read the comments I posted above about loss of tension and leading edge, and a certain softness to the sound. It is why I understand that Naim never made a Hi-line DIN/XLR.

What about changing speakers?  They have such a dramatic effect on the balance of the sound; surely to remain with the limits of N.I.P. we must use Naim speakers, otherwise we'll be completely outside of the limits of N.I.P..  If we can change speakers to those of another manufacturer and remain within N.I.P. than surely we can change to a different manufacturer's CD player (or amp...   or cables!).

that's debatable, some speakers do in fact cloak and choke the Naim intended performance. 

P.S. I understand the principle, I just think your expression of your approach is far too dogmatic.

Maybe, some things like speakers are debatable, some issues like PSU are not.

There's a very good reason for that, and as I said, what I want is to hear what Salisbury designed so carefully. Others may  like another sound. 

to be clear I am talking about a Naim amplifier as a component. Not a source or a speaker.

In case it is pointed out I use Chord DAC and Dynaudio speakers, I would say agree, it is a dilution of the Naim intended performance. But that's ok with me, as I like the performance of Chord DACs and Dynaudio speakers.

 Anyway - where is the Naim turntable - before the appearance of Naim CD players?

And also most of the Naim sound comes from the amplifier, that's what I hear. My opinion.

Let me try a simpler paradigm...

If, hypothetically speaking, someone, for instance, found a cable with characteristics precisely in between the standard N.I.P. black cable, and the (presumably also N.I.P.) Super Lumina cable, would that not also be N.I.P.?

if it has the same electric properties of the standard Naim DIN/XLR - (capacitance, inductance, resistance, diameter of the cores), sure why not?

But I am not an electronics engineer, and it isn't a good use of my time to try to re-invent the Naim DIN/XLR cable

Also I tried to make a RCA to DIN cable of my own using a Canare cable, and it sounded nothing like the Naim standard RCA to DIN, at which point I just gave up.

There are surely better things to do in life than second guess 40 years of Naim engineering?

analogmusic posted:

if it has the same electric properties of the standard Naim DIN/XLR - (capacitance, inductance, resistance, diameter of the cores), sure why not?

But I am not an electronics engineer, and it isn't a good use of my time to try to re-invent the Naim DIN/XLR cable

Also I tried to make a RCA to DIN cable of my own using a Canare cable, and it sounded nothing like the Naim standard RCA to DIN, at which point I just gave up.

There are surely better things to do in life than second guess 40 years of Naim engineering?

 

So, let me get this right...

You are asserting that any cable that doesn't have "the same electric properties of the standard Naim DIN/XLR - (capacitance, inductance, resistance, diameter of the cores)", cannot have N.I.P. when used inbetween a (any) Naim preamp and a NAP250, NAP300 or NAP500.

Is that correct?

Some of us might be able to keep awake and possibly even follow this if we knew what the hell   'Naim's Intended Performance' is, and furthermore judge if it is a real thing or just in someone's head.

It's an abstract concept!

I don't know - and frankly made my peace with this issue. 

I tried a few non Naim cables and something fundamental was lost. 

try this track on tidal

"Lonely boy " by The avener

There is a guitar there impossible to miss the difference in leading edge between the Naim DIN/XLR and a non-naim one.

I don't have anything more to say on this other than please try the track for yourself.

Huge posted:

It's an abstract concept!

So just in Analogmusic's head then.

No - it’s something that naim must know themselves as they refused to change their din xlr for 40 years almost

analogmusic posted:

No - it’s something that naim must know themselves as they refused to change their din xlr for 40 years almost

But it has changed, as have SNAICs, Lavender, and even speaker cables from A4 to A5. And then they brought out SL. Naim have pondered the same issue and have made changes. 

Their cable designs are hardly carved in stone slabs on the mountain.

The new naim cables keep the qualities of the old cables while removing their weaknesses 

they don’t change the sound unlike many third party cables

Huge posted:

I have 4 sets (if you include the Naim originals, which I didn't make!).

To my ears (with my speakers, in my room!) I found the Mogami W2497 to be the best cable between the 272/555 and 300DR.
To be fair I haven't compared them to SL or Chord Sarum (any variant) or Music.

I posted the relevant links above.

Huge, what would be the best Mogami din/xlr cable between a Hicap and a 250 ? The W2497 only have 2 conductors.

Bought and soldered  MOGAMI Neglex QUAD W2534..............4 conductors  only ,   no  power required in my system 

Nac 272 to Nap 200    ......excellent result