Roon SQ vs DLNA

I suggest your Macmini is a digital transport might be the limiting factor, assuming your are not manipulating the samples in Roon and it’s bit perfect... but you don’t say what your UPnP streamer and transport is...

I’ve tried running Roon on a Macbook over WiFi, and it didn’t sound as good as UPnP. In both cases, this was from CD rips stored on a Unitiserve. Giving the Macbook a wired connection improved it a bit. 

Simon- thanks! UPNP streamer is rendu as well (you can switch roon - dlna - squeezbox etc inputs via web gui). UPNP/DLNA runs on qnap with minimserv.

T38.45 posted:

Hi folks,

this drives me nuts... I'm running a NAS + macmini (2012 i5) +roon + rendu on one LAN switch. In this setup, I'm able to run DLNA/UPNP on NAS ('qnap) instead of roon/mac so I can compare directly in the same setup the SQ without changing HW.

The SQ of the DLNA is so much better...more focus, more colour, bigger image compared to roon. Even running hqp for upsampling this  can't touch DLNA playing native music.

So it seems that there are two potential problems:

- sending data/music packages around the network kills music or

- macmini is the limiting factor

Any one here got same results?

thanks!!!!

Ralf

Can you please clarify your setup: From your description I take it as follows: please confirm

1. NAS —ethernet—> Mac Mini to run Roon —?—> microRendu —usb--> DAC.   
2. QNAP NAS —ethernet—>  microRendu —usb—> DAC

Are they two independent NASs, or is it actually the same one feeding both setups?

What connection between Mac Mini and uR in setup 1?

 Where is/are the switche(s in the systems? 

Are the two completely independent, or is it that you have a switch with outputs of MM and QNAP and input of microRendu connected together?

NAS---LAN--macmini roon----LAN----microrendu---usb---dac

NAS/minimserv---LAN---microrendu---usb---dac

same NAS, all components connected to the same LAN switch (NAS, mini, rendu)

mac----lan---switch port1

Nas--lan------switch port2

rendu--lan--switch port3

wifi router--lan--switch port 4

So you’re using software in the microRendu to select either the file served direct from the NAS, or the Roon served from the Mac Mini.

It could be worth dumping a few tracks on the MM’s hard disk and getting Roon to play from that instead - not thinking there will be a difference, but an easy thing to try. Otherwise I’m sorry, I have no suggestions as i don’t have enough familiarity with Roon used in this way, and no familiarity with uR.

Thanks- that‘s what I did already so running roon server and some music files on mac , but SQ is still not as good as the upnp setup...

Ok, so as the file is streaming across the ethernet in both setups, one would expect them to sound the same, except that one is going through Mac Mini running Roon. the cause could be the Mac Mini itself degrading the digital encoded digital information (which could include injecting RF or other noise), or Rune itself is having abpn adverse effect. I doubt it is the computer not having adequate processing power to run Roon, so looking beyond that, any settings in Roon that might make it cease to be bit perfect, e.g  DSP, whether volume control or room compensation etc?

Otherwise this may be one to take up with the Roon community - though if you do and an answer is forthcoming then please post here!

Had a similar experience with a different SQ with a bit perfect feed from a Roon Endpoint into my NDS/555DR network player.

So same music files on the same remote NAS, with the following playback options:

• Asset R6 UPnP server running on RPi, running a lean OS, transcoding to WAV to the NDS
• NUC5i3 running Roon OS as the Roon Core, feeding SonicorbiterSE as Roon Endpoint running the Sonore UPnP Bridge (using Roon's Squeezelite mode & protocol) into the NDS

I have also tried the USB output from the SonicorbiterSE, so it uses the Roon RAAT transport protocol, with an XMOS based USB->S/PDIF convertor into the BNC digital input on the NDS.

All equipment running on the same network switches and networking for both the backend data storage serving equipment over a separate sub-network for the playback rendering equipment.

Neither Roon Endpoints sound as good as the UPnP input in terms of scale, presentation and dynamics.

I have a desire to migrate away from the Naim app as my main controller and library management application, as Roon is hands down, better - however not if the native UPnP feed continues to sound better.
I have a concern that Naim is focusing development of the Naim App for their new models and product range and not advancing the functionality and features for any of their 'Classic' range of streamers, even though they are still available for sale and NDS is the current reference grade streamer product.

Thanks, Simon

Thanks Simon! So it really seems that roon has not the same SQ as upnp even in your setup. Good to know because I was just thinking about dedicated i5 roon server...makes no sense than.

But what bothers me, is that it should, it should be 'bit perfect', UPnP should just be the same, and every UPnP server, whether running on a NAS or a separate dedicated server or an expensive badged server should sound the same.

So it depends on how you are currently running a UPnP Server, as I would image that a separate Roon Core, through an Endpoint into a USB DAC device SHOULD be better than a UPnP server running on the NAS and served over the network.

But with every system there is the possibility of noise being introduced into every stage, tolerances in the timing of the packet frames and asynchronous USB inputs.

I am sure that a Roon system can be stunning, such as Meridian's ID40 cards into DSP8000's, dCS Bridge in a dCS DAC with Master Clock or Merging's Roon product, etc.

Just I haven't ironed out the niggles of a Roon Endpoint into the Naim Network Player, wo native Roon support or a USB DAC input.

Again I am perfectly happy with the SQ from the NDS with a dedicated UPnP server, my concern is being left without new features/functionality from the Controlling App, that is not receiving any attention from Naim, as their focus is elsewhere in new markets and with new products.

I want the front-end User experience of Roon, for library and track management/information and playback control with the same SQ as I get from the dedicated UPnP server on that input.

Simon.

PS Don't let my experiences determine the outcome of your journey through this maze.

In the ethernet path between NAS and renderer, is Roon doing anything than being a bit of library software, the machine it is on (Mac Mini in the OP’s case) just being a processor on which it can run? (I know it can be run stand-alone on a computer, doing the rendering itself, passing the output via USB to a DAC, but that is not the setup in this case) If it is not supposed to be doing anything with the signal, does it have to be in the path, as opposed simply controlling the renderer and UPnP server? (I’m straying out of my comfort zone here, not knowing how it works).

Can Roon not be installed on the NAS? (That was the basis of my suggested test to load some files into Mac Mini’s storage and try running from there without Accessing the NAS).

some people seem to run Roon happlity, maybe need to see how they set it up - but of course taking into account how revealing their system may be compared to yours.

Good points! My NAS (qnap hs251) has not enough power to run roon but agreed, that would be ideal running roon on NAS me think... and yes roon should be bit-perfect ????

I run Roon core on my Qnap TS251 and it works very well if you do not want too much signal processing. DSD upsampling etc. is a bit marginal in terms of occasional dropouts but makes very little difference to my ears. Tidal via Roon sounds fine to me - as good as rips via upnp.

I am having this issue with my Atom, the native upnp and Tidal app sound much clearer and defined compare to Roon which sound flat and lifeless in comparison to both local and Tid playback. My old Pi/Roon bridge setup sounded better for Roon than the Atom. I wonder if they are using the latest version of RAAT on the Atom or the signal path for Roon bypasses some internal processing on the Atom. I bought the Atom so I could have Roon, Spotify and Chromecast so its disappointing it sounds less than it should.

Ok, so there are more than two here in the forum who think that upnp sounds better.... very good to know! Thanks for feedback, maybe roon will improve SW SQ wise...

It could also be, that how Roon's protocols and method of operation are very new to Naim's Engineers, and how to get the best from them are not known yet. Whereas how to process WAV format streamed over UPnP in DNLA environment, they have been working on since the HDX and NDX.

I'm sure there will be updates and future firmware releases that improve it, if Naim are going to embrace Roon as a credible direction for their customers, or it may be a 'tick box' item added, but they continue to focus on a Naim product centre eco-system for those who require and pay for 'Plug and Play' with the Uniti Core as the offered server for UPnP.

Simon

Pev posted:

I run Roon core on my Qnap TS251 and it works very well if you do not want too much signal processing. DSD upsampling etc. is a bit marginal in terms of occasional dropouts but makes very little difference to my ears. Tidal via Roon sounds fine to me - as good as rips via upnp.

Any signal processing changes it from bit perfect - though that doesn’t necessarily mean sounding bad. Can you switch off all DSP for maximum fidelity?

Yes - I don't use any signal processing now.

I first used a laptop to run the Roon core and tried some of the Roon DSP options. When I transferred the Roon core to my NAS (actually to an SSD attached to the NAS as per Roon instructions) I found occasional dropouts which were cure when I turned of all DSP. The DSP actuallly didn't make that much difference and I don't miss it - I do like running everything from my NAS which is always on anyway rather than involving a computer of any kind.

T38.45 posted:

1) NAS---LAN--macmini roon----LAN----microrendu---usb---dac

2) NAS/minimserv---LAN---microrendu---usb---dac

same NAS, all components connected to the same LAN switch (NAS, mini, rendu)

Have you perhaps setup MinimServer to do some transcoding that Roon doesn't do or the other way round?

If not, you could try temporarily replacing the microRendu with a Raspberry Pi. If 1) and 2) sound comparably once you have replaced the microRendu with a RPi, then the culprit is obviously the implementation of the  Roon endpoint in the microRendu. In this case, replacing the microRendu with another network player would be an obvious approach.

If 1) and 2) still sound very different with a RPi in place of the microRendu, then the next step would be to compare

a) macmini + roon----LAN----microrendu---usb---dac

b) macmini + minimserv---LAN---microrendu---usb---dac

with both Roon and MinimServer fetching local files stored in the macmini or on an external drive.

Thanks- I switched-off minimserver but it has no sound effect with roon. roon connects to the music shares directly and doesn't rely on a presentation sw like twonky or minimserver. I think I'll have to wait for an improved version of roon....

T38.45 posted:

Thanks- I switched-off minimserver but it has no sound effect with roon. roon connects to the music shares directly and doesn't rely on a presentation sw like twonky or minimserver. I think I'll have to wait for an improved version of roon....

I would expect that the component that has the most significant impact on the sound quality in your chain is the implementation of the Roon endpoint. Perhaps it is just the microRendo that is very good as a UPnP renderer and not so good as Roon endpoint. Should be very easy to find out, see my previous post.

Some excellent points raised in this thread I’m mid way through my free Roon trial and at this point am about 90% sure I won’t be going to pay to keep it going. 

The whole metadata thing isn’t that important to me. I can see the attraction absolutely but for sound reasons alone it isn’t worth the money. When both Upnp and hard wired Nas/USB drives sound better plus I already have HQ player  

I will try to test a different endpoint as soon as wife accepts it ;-))