I hope its worth it?

Its a fair point and I am unable to answer. But, for sure, Richard Danes instructions are far superior to what you get with the Fraim itself.

Quite frankly I cannot tell the difference rapping the glass shelves one side vs the other...

davidf posted:

Quite frankly I cannot tell the difference rapping the glass shelves one side vs the other...

 

I wonder how many Naim Fraim owners have the glass shelves upside down???

each side and turned round, there are 4 options, pick the liveliest sounding if you can hear one but it depends a bit on how you knock it so be consistant. Had anyone bothered to compare to the wrong way round?

Begs the question - if having the glass "correct side-up" is deterministic in Fraim's set up success, why wouldn't Naim themselves provide an indicator on their glass shelves? Why not simply denote the topside; I'd expect that for the cost. 

Otherwise it's all a subjective call based on a methodology of the end user left to rap a knuckle on the glass. Then evaluate which side "rings, dings, or doesn't donk"? Poppycock.

I've attempted the rapping and ringing deed with prescription tempered glass used on my Isoblue, and I'll be damned if I can consistently hear a definitive "top side" once flipped or rotated 180-degrees.

Maybe results ring obvious with genuine Fraim glass? To the pragmatic it's ridiculous fodder used to fuel audiophile nervosa, after all it's a freaking sheet of tempered glass. What's next, we attempt to discriminate the better origin silica used in the glass production?

For those that heard a clear difference in their ring test - I won't dispute your findings - rest assured your Fraim is now optimized. Next time you break down and rebuild your Fraim to re-optimize it, be sure you've marked your glass so it's re-installed correct side-up. Or go through the ring test again and see if you get the same results. For that matter, flip to the dull side of the glass and see how you discriminate that change in SQ.

Joerand, it's a tweek - and as you say, one that might seem a bit crazy, so no surprise that you won't get any official acknowledgement on it from Naim.  

Also, I think it's not just dependant on the sheet of glass itself but rather the glass and the balls and cups together and how they "ring" to a tap of the knuckle - so depending on all of those the glass could be one way round or the other, so not fixed in stone and marking the glass is no good.

I do it on every level as I build or rebuild - it only adds 20 seconds or so to each level's build time, so no onerous at all, and I reckon it does make some kind of difference. It may well be just "in my head", but then isn't everything that is related to listening?

Have you tried it on your Fraim?  Keep an open mind and give it a go and see what you think.

In my experience i have found some of the panes of glass have a definite difference and others don’t. Its easy enough to tap the glass as you build the stack up. Once i have decided which way up a pane will be I load it with a black box and move to the next level.

I’ve never (and will never) then deconstruct the stack to flip the panes and see if there is any audible difference. Life is too short. 

Also, generally once a year, I take the stack down and tighten everything up. ive never taken the time to note which way up any of the panes were before i deconstructed. On rebuild i just go through same process of tapping the glass and if i can hear a difference will act on that. Wouldnt like to guarantee that all the panes are same way up, as they were before, once im finished. And ive never felt that sound was off after completing one of these cycles.

Whether or not the knuckle rap sounds the same on both sides could of course be due to slight difference in the part of the knuckle impacting, or angle of impact, or force of impact, as well as the precise points of suspension of the glass and of impact. So trying to standardise those may be important - e.g. may be more reliable to sit it on the balls in precisly the same position for each side and arrange a mechanical object to repeatably srike a glancing blow at a precise position and force. A pellet gun mounted on a stand might work... responsibility for the consequences lies entirely with the user! 

IB, I didn't realise that you use Fraim.  You may be overthinking this one.  It's not a precise science by any means, more an art, something for which you get a feel and a knack with practice. Give it a go.

Richard Dane posted:

IB, I didn't realise that you use Fraim.  You may be overthinking this one.  It's not a precise science by any means, more an art, something for which you get a feel and a knack with practice. Give it a go.

I don’t, so can’t (I would if I could) - but the discussion intrigued me, from more than one angle.

This tap test or whatever one wants to call it, in my humble opinion is certainly worth trying..... one spends a huge amount of money on an upgrade so why not try and optimise its absolute potential..... .. 

thanks to many experienced forum members these little tweaks are shared..... I personally was completely unaware of this one.....

It's February 19th, 15:47 p.m. I officially foresee and anticipate (as I did years ago, but no one remembers, with HiEnd Ethernet cables, which seemed a crazy idea then and is cautiously normal today) the profession of Fraim tuner as we have piano tuners today.

Prey take note and re-read in a couple of semesters.

M

Max_B posted:

It's February 19th, 15:47 p.m. I officially foresee and anticipate (as I did years ago, but no one remembers, with HiEnd Ethernet cables, which seemed a crazy idea then and is cautiously normal today) the profession of Fraim tuner as we have piano tuners today.

 

Person specification and pay rate needed...

IB,

a good piano tuner comes to your home and takes no less than 90 minutes to tune a piano properly; let's add that there is no properly about piano tuning because of issues that date back to many centuries ago. If you're lucky, it will be about €1/minute, but it may vary if the tuner is a friend and times may be significantly shorter if he's using a small electronic machine which tells him when each note is right according to what has been accepted as right around 1722.

Fraim Tuning will be another matter... Let's kill the time with a few hypothesizes: when will someone try ceramic balls instead of steel ones? Ceramic should be much less resonant than steel, and as hard... As for which side of the glass makes bonk and which ding!, this is harder to decide because looking at the Fraim's elegantly fumé glass slabs, I have not the impression it is shatter-proof glass, meaning two or more layers held together with polyvinylbutyral (PVB) but plain good crystal or glass: so its structural composition shouldn't allow for any difference in tension or elasticity across its thickness. I see it more like a touch of mere elegance. I'd be curious to attend a blind listening test between Fraim and FraimLite.

Then there's each bolt's torque... Something that would have given Dante stuff for a whole infernal circle. How do we know how energy (this mysterious entity that is born with the crazy run of electrons along cables and semiconductors, not to mention when they spin around coils like hamsters in their wheel?) – how energy, I was saying, propagates itself according to the tension with which each leg of the Fraim has been tightened? And along which one of the three legs will energy reach the ground first? With what consequences? Are we sure that the Chips don't unexpectedly prevent energy from being dispelled through the floor, towards the magmatic center of the Earth, where it cannot be harmful to the reproduction of sound?

I have often wondered what audio experts have against energy. Reading about some descriptions of audio setups one has the feeling that a proper installation is just a tad more complex than making a nuclear power plant leakproof. It is, true, the dreaded mechanical energy, the one that, if not completely tamed and channelled away, can destroy PR&T and 3D image, flow, musicality and even change randomly notes from the original score; but it seems sometimes too much a worry. 

People who will hire the Fraim Tuner will expect their system to sound not like if one veil had been risen in comparison to before, but like if all Salome's seven had been removed – with extra benefits. So, Re: person specifications, I'd say it will take someone in comparison to whom Dark Bear is a shabby and hasty car stereo assembler; and as for pay rate, the simplest thing would be – once the work is done – to pay it with the Fraim itself, and put the system inside a cupboard.

Best,

Max

I think some on here are not taking Fraim tuning seriously and should be considered from being barred from such important discussions.

I think that if such a person really exists, he should be banned, not barred.

(I'll dust some other account off and be ready to reappear undercover).

M.

You can run but you can't hide you dastardly Fraim tuner, you! Get back to selling snake oil, I say!

I rebuilt my 'brains' stack again at the weekend as I was concerned about the fit of some new mid length legs I'd installed, which hadn't aligned perfectly in the cups. That was sorted by inverting and swapping the front legs left to right and turning the rear leg over (it was the rear leg that hadn't been quite right). Anyway, I did the knuckle test in the reassembly and whilst some shelves rung nicely, I had one which 'donked' no matter which way up.

Once when I was rebuilding a stack with my local dealer present he told me of the importance of 'squeaking your balls'. This involves polishing the balls before inserting in the cups and then twisting them clockwise and anti-clockwise to get a good squeak. I have no idea if it has any effect on SQ, but I now perform it every time!

Clive B posted:

I did the knuckle test in the reassembly and whilst some shelves rung nicely, I had one which 'donked' no matter which way up.

Once when I was rebuilding a stack with my local dealer present he told me of the importance of 'squeaking your balls'. This involves polishing the balls before inserting in the cups and then twisting them clockwise and anti-clockwise to get a good squeak. I have no idea if it has any effect on SQ, but I now perform it every time!

Absolutely fascinating..... 

so the key to a good build is to hear a ding not a donk and make sure your balls squeak?????

I’m not going to mention this to SWMBO, she may think it’s time to call the men in white coats....

Is the glass sat on the balls when you test for the ding? 

^^ This is no time for comedy.

Finkfan posted:

Is the glass sat on the balls when you test for the ding? 

As I understand it, the glass is placed on top of the balls first, then you test for the ding.

Finkfan posted:

Is the glass sat on the balls when you test for the ding? 

Yes. Otherwise you wouldn't get either a ding or a donk, but a thud!