Minimum room size for full-range floorstanders?

I'm pretty sure my old dealer's demo room was only about 12x15 feet and the Shahinnian's I heard (Obelisk) sounded terrific firing down the room.

NBLs are a good size and I have them in a room 4.1 by 3.3m with a bay 1m deep in one long wall and 1/2m deep alcoves either side of the chimeny breast opposite the bay. Speakers are backed 5.5cm from the short wall (which is 3.8m at that point), a solid wall is essential. Not sure you’d get away with many other large speakers without a bit more space.

I don’t think there can be a hard and fast answer, not least because it depends on the individual speakers, and the shape of the room, and speaker and listening positions, and how the room will be furnished, and indeed and how you like your sound. I have used large floorstanders quite happily in a range of rooms down to room 16’ by 11’8” by 9’ - not small, but not large. 

When house hunting, having a room of relatively large dimensions has always been a primary consideration for me, 5m by 3.5m by 2.7m being the smallest I’ve ever had, all others significantly larger. The large floor standers  (IMF RSPMs) I had in that room and several others have sounded great in all, with only my present 7m by 7m by 2.4m oddly shaped room - the largest of all - causing difficulty, requiring analysis with REW to find acceptable speaker and listening positions.

Fact 12s might suit a smaller room well, partly because of their diminutive size, and partly because their bass (and treble) respose can be tailored to some extent). If I had to downsize I would certainly consider them. FWIW I’ve heard them a couple of times, both with the settings flat, and in rooms of vaguely similar size (maybe 5 or 6m by 4m, estimated purely from mental images). First had speakers firing across room, listening sofa close to wall, front of speakers maybe 1.5m or so from back wall. Overall I felt the Fact 12s were very good, great clarity, surprisingly good bass for their diminutive size, however the soundstage seemed a little constrained. Next time I heard them was in a similarly sized room and about the same distance from speakers, but firing down the room, sofa maybe 1.2m from the back wall. They sounded really good, that time with no feeling of constrained soundstage. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Fact 12s might suit a smaller room well, partly because of their diminutive size, 

Interesting choice of words. One person's "diminutive" is another person's "bloody massive monolith". 

I only ever go for floor standers in a main system, but I also feel like anything of say, PMC Twenty5.24 size and up is massive. And yes, I know speakers get much bigger. A comment I often read is how some large speaker "works fine in my small room" and yet every time I go and hear someone's system where this has been said, I always think "No, this is NOT working in this room - but you want to convince yourself it is after spending the money"

That said, room size alone is a really poor indicator. Placement and distances between parallel walls, the physical structure of the walls and the floor and so on make a massive difference. I commented on another thread recently that Twenty5.23 were just nearing too much for my largish 7x8m room. A sprung floor and non load bearing walls will do that. While it is true that most of the world outside Europe is in countries where dealers are too far away and home demos are unheard of, it is still important to get a good audition and use some judgement. If you hear something at the dealer's demo room, don't just think about their room size and compare it to your own. Also think about how it may differ in construction and what impact that might have. 

The "always try it at home" mantra gets a bit tired (despite being good advice) since it ignores how impossible it is for 90% of audiophiles. But I'd not recommend buying on a punt either. Do your research. Demo speakers somewhere. And do your best to extrapolate how that might sound at home (fraught with error as that may be).

feeling_zen posted:

. A comment I often read is how some large speaker "works fine in my small room" and yet every time I go and hear someone's system where this has been said, I always think "No, this is NOT working in this room - but you want to convince yourself it is after spending the money"

That observation of course can apply to any item of equipment purchased, though the more expensive it is the greater the psychological pressure, and I believe that sometimes what is referred to as ‘burning in’ is as much or more the individual’s brain adjusting to and learning to like the new sound. However, of the greatest significance is one of my observations in my first post - how you like your sound. And that, it seems, differs greatly. (E.g. I, for one, cannot enjoy my music fully with an absence of full bass, and could not conceive of living with a system where it is curtailed  - but  others apear to feel the opposite.)

feeling_zen posted:

The "always try it at home" mantra gets a bit tired (despite being good advice) since it ignores how impossible it is for 90% of audiophiles. But I'd not recommend buying on a punt either. Do your research. Demo speakers somewhere. And do your best to extrapolate how that might sound at home (fraught with error as that may be).

I agree 1000%. But interestingly, my first major speaker purchase at second speaker upgrade sounded good (to me) in five different rooms as I moved home over the years, and subsequently in someone else’s home to their new owner’s satisfaction as well. And their replacement sounded great (to me) in four different rooms in which I’ve had them, and they likewise are loved by their latest owner in their subsequent. So whilst rooms can certainly alter the sound, and as I found in one room sometimes can demand a lot of care with placement, if the character of the speakers satisfies you it is possible that can be the case  in more than one room.

I find that more 'traditionally' furnished rooms that are on the small side can cope with larger speakers better than rooms that are more minimalist in design. For instance before trying different speaker cables and a different cartridge I tried moving my quite large floor standers from a 3x4m living room that had a big comfy sofa, lots of soft furnishings and shelves packed with stuff into a dining room the same size almost empty apart from a glass table and chairs and the difference was huge in favour of the first room.

I started a thread on here about my speakers breaking down at party levels and amongst other things the room was blamed and it turned out to be Tellurium Q Black speaker cables that couldn't handle it and a return to Nac A5 tamed all that wooly bass and distortion at party levels.

To further the discussion, room dimensions may be more critical than the overall volume for how floor standers play. Regardless of room volume, a cube (same width and length) is going to be detrimental to clean bass response with bass nodes multiplying. That said, I guess a larger cube offers more speaker and seating position options to help reduce apparent nodes at the listening location. Sealed cabinets over ported designs might also be a consideration. A rectangular room, even if small would be better than a cube. Solid construction (concrete floor and brick walls) would also be better than timber construction. In any case, bass traps seem mandatory to help tame room modes when using floor standers in a small room.

I use Ovators S-400 in a room of approximately 18 sqm (height 3 meters).  It’s rectangular, with speakers firing accross a shorter side. 

As to bass traps - I don’t think they are mandatory - room damping is important though to avoid uneven reflections. It’s quite easy to do in a domestic environment. Books, carpets, soft furniture are quite useful.

Ironically, the smaller the rooms is, the bigger my speakers are. 

I have S600 in a 16 m2 room with pretty good success, S400  in a 35m2  attic room. here it seems to work even better off the  theroric sweet spot, and nSat in a 40 m2 basement room. I like the latter very much

Regards

Roberto

kevin J Carden posted:

 I currently use Shahinian Obelisk2’s in a room about 18’ x 13’ with the speakers firing across the room

I thought all Shahinians fired up the room (literally) !? Maybe that makes them a good choice for small rooms (with high ceilings) ?

If you want hassle free hi-fi in the average size room, then a pair of stand mounts should do the trick. But that's not the point. I like large scale classical orchestral music and the better I can get to that illusion the happier I am. So that puts me firmly into the largest floor stand I can fit in the room to least annoy my wife and not "drive" the room. I hate "one note bass". Plus neither of us wants two really massive boxes in the living room.

In searching for a suitable music room I think ceiling height, taller the better, and a solid floor (concrete?) are the way to go.  Most Victorian/Edwardian houses have higher ceilings, but with suspended floors, sometimes with a cellar beneath. So decouple the speakers from the floor as far as possible. About five years age we replaced metal single glazed windows with good quality double glazing and this helped to tighten things up.

Our room is about 18 ft X 13 ft with average room height about 8 ft 3 ins. There is a large bay window on one side of the longer wall and the speakers fire down that wall each side of the fireplace. They are B & W 802 Diamonds driven by a 500 DR with SL cable. Speakers are pulled out from the rear and side walls but not to any extent. With this set up any one note bass is a thing of the past largely due to the grip of the power amp I expect.

The hardest part of hi-fi is getting the speaker/room interface right. Sometimes this is not apparent but takes a few hours for it to show up. The first track on a London Grammar CD has far too much bass for my liking. Sounds OK on the kitchen radio though!

Douglas.

The answer to the question you actually asked is really quite simple...

If they appear to big too you then they are too big for you.

However I don't think the question you actually asked is the one you intended to ask.

If you're asking about acoustics rather than aesthetics, then you need to look at frequency response NOT size.
This is a problem as a lot of speaker manufacturers don't quote a true value for the lower frequency response (they often quote without specifying the level in dB or they quote a fictitious and completely meaningless 'In Room' value).  If you can get a true lower frequency response limit value (anechoic or near-field -6db value will do) then you can use the Room Simulation dialogue of REW to see if they'll match the room.

Bear in mind that if the LF response is significant (maybe >-12dB at a wavelength 2x the size of the room then for good LF response you're going to need bass traps (and not just blocks of open cell foam shoved into the corners of the room - they don't actually work as bass traps!).

Hi Kevin,

After a long-ish journey (well, 22-odd years since we moved to where we are now), I’ve arrived at my final set of speakers, Kudos 606s, in a compact, box-like 11’ 6” x 12’ room. And I’m pleased to report that they’re working beautifully.

I started with Isobariks, which never really worked, through WB Arcs, which did, and then a pair of Kudos S20s, which gave me a hint that the 606s were going to be OK, even though they go a lot lower (and tighter),  but also seem to absolutely love a lot more volume. 

The room has got solid walls and floor but the main difference for me was that I use a Linn KDS, which benefits from Sound Optimisation, meaning that any sub 100Hz room problems could be resolved digitally. Interestingly, though, the 606s work well without it, which wasn’t expected. Anyway, although I’d love a bigger room, room size need not be problem.

joerand posted:

......Regardless of room volume, a cube (same width and length) is going to be detrimental to clean bass response with bass nodes multiplying....

The worst room I ever had was a perfect cube. 10' x 10' x 10'.  An 1896 weatherboard with dodgy footings. Bouncy wooden floors, wood panelled walls to 1/2 way up the walls and wooden ceiling. In the end I ran Linn Kans with stupidly OTT amplification because the Kans had no bass....

Cubes are diabolical. 

Bass traps have helped me in the past in other rooms too.

My current room is the best I have ever had, as the shape is speaker friendly and I have my couch so the nearest rear wall is 5 metres away.

Whilst I agree with an earlier poster that a decent speaker will generally sound good in different environments, I have encountered some really difficult rooms where everything sounds shite. Stax headphones to the rescue.

Indeed that would definitely be a problem cubed, and with a problem at a high (relatively) 56Hz making it all the more audible.

My solution in a relatively small, almost square room 3.75m x 4.25m is to use bass absorbers, speakers with limited bass extension and a sub whose response is (digitally) tailored to the room acoustics.  Full range speakers in my room would be an absolute disaster.

Huge posted:

Indeed that would definitely be a problem cubed, and with a problem at a high (relatively) 56Hz making it all the more audible.

My solution in a relatively small, almost square room 3.75m x 4.25m is to use bass absorbers, speakers with limited bass extension and a sub whose response is (digitally) tailored to the room acoustics.  Full range speakers in my room would be an absolute disaster.

Back in those days, (mid 80's), I understood about standing waves, and had a bit of a clue about room damping. I used to use egg cartons to create speaker live end/listener dead end rooms.  But I had no idea of bass traps and of course digital signal manipulation as per Linn Exackt was not remotely on the horizon. If I could specify a room shape for a client, non parallel walls, and prime number ratios for the dimensions were the go to.  And size! Bigger was better.

But my little cottage was a trial. The design philosophy of Spendor BC1's, (a tuned, damped but compliant enclosure), was enlisted to try and sort my bass problem in this terrible cube space. I put bitumous matting on the floor and a layer of marine ply on top. Tried a sandwich style of cladding on the front wall. And plenty of crazy things besides.

I also tried many speakers, which was easy to do as I had a pretty good resources in the shop I worked at. And eventually settled on Kans. which I loved, (and hated because they didn't rock the way they should on "Blue Monday").

The whole system was a "huge", (sorry about that), step down from my previous active Isobariks, (which I had sold to buy the house).  The Kans were first driven by a NAP110, then a NAP250, then by a Krell KSA50, and finally two Stax DA100's. Even tried some electrostatic speakers, the Stax 81's, (which were sublime).

I then moved back to a pair of Meridian M2 actives for a short while. I had lived with a set a few years earlier in a different house. They had twin 100mm bass drivers, and were quite petite. The bass control which came with the active design, (and the fact they were so limited in bass anyway), made a nice match to the room. But.....

My ultimate solution was to demolish the back of the house and build a bigger room. Actually was cheaper than the next step of amplification/speakers that I was contemplating.

And finally some room to put in some SBL's. Positioned well. A couch with no wall hard up against the back. Ah....bliss

I don't think you want to go less than 15X12 for a speaker like Fact 12. I heard from a user of Spendor D9 and he is not happy with them in a 10X13 room. You really need some good space for full sized speakers to shine. Why not look at Fact 8 for smaller rooms?

Kevin,

Your question is interesting. We have pretty much the same system except for the loudspeakers, in my case Linn Isobariks which are quite big I suppose.

I am fortunate to have a dedicated listening room, which is on the small side at 12' 6" deep, 13' wide, and 8' high. It is an old house so none of the walls are vertical and the ceiling has lots of oak beams running in different directions. I'm not technical but I reckon they 'chop up' the sound and reduce echo. The floor is concrete and carpeted. The briks have a good range and they seem nicely under control.

Like you I am pondering an upgrade and would like to try Fact 12s amongst others. Briks and NBLs go near a wall but B&W and lots of others won't. So that's a thing with a small room. The Kudos range appear easy to place. Anyway, that wasn't your question, and I will enjoy exploring different speakers when I get round to it.

Folks on this forum have been a great help to me over the years and I've had much insight from hearing a few rigs in members homes. Much better than a demo in a dealers. I live in the Midlands and you'd be welcome to come and hear a smaller room if you want to. You could even bring the Obs if that helps as we could just plug them in and you can compare rooms so to speak. Or just hear the briks if you prefer. No worries if it doesn't suit.

Contact is in profile.

Regards, David

David,

thats really kind. If I can get myself up the M5 at some point I may well take up your generous offer. Good to hear that speakers as large and full range as Briks can work in that space.

and thanks to all other responders. 

Fact 8’s are great too - I was hugely impressed by them when I heard them. I’ve actually heard them more than I have Fact 12’s, but ideally I think I’d like the extra low end and scale that the 12’s bring - especially on Orchestral music.

Dave J, very encouraging to hear that the 606’s work in that sized room. I haven’t heard 606’s, but have been very impressed by 808 and 707 on brief exposure.

One further thought/question : I guess another option could be to use an upstairs bedroom as my music room. That ought to be able to get me something like a 12’ x 14’  space, but it would introduce the unwelcome variable of a suspended wooden floor. Anyone had any experience or better still, success using a full range system upstairs?

kevin J Carden posted:

David,

thats really kind. If I can get myself up the M5 at some point I may well take up your generous offer. Good to hear that speakers as large and full range as Briks can work in that space.

and thanks to all other responders. 

Fact 8’s are great too - I was hugely impressed by them when I heard them. I’ve actually heard them more than I have Fact 12’s, but ideally I think I’d like the extra low end and scale that the 12’s bring - especially on Orchestral music.

Dave J, very encouraging to hear that the 606’s work in that sized room. I haven’t heard 606’s, but have been very impressed by 808 and 707 on brief exposure.

One further thought/question : I guess another option could be to use an upstairs bedroom as my music room. That ought to be able to get me something like a 12’ x 14’  space, but it would introduce the unwelcome variable of a suspended wooden floor. Anyone had any experience or better still, success using a full range system upstairs?

I think Mike Kent has an active 500 system in his loft so I’m sure he can provide some insight.

Well yes actually. My previous house was a three storey Victorian place with rooms around 12' by 11' with suspended wooden floors, and I had my rig in one of the top bedrooms. 

Back then it was still the Isobariks but active with 3x250s. It was a very successful sound - and its not just me saying that, honest! The room had a sloping ceiling which may have helped by it not being symmetrical. And 'trad' furniture soaked up resonance. There was one bass note which set up a resonance but it occured infrequently. That was to do with the floor.

Not pleasant for anyone downstairs though. Best play music when everyone is out if you go for that option.

for upstairs rooms, using soundproof carpet tiles really helps but they look officey, not homely. They are very heavy, low cost (you can do are large room for GBP 200 easily) and easy to cut to size to fit around protrusions. However, the more professional aproach is soundproof lead mats under your regular carpet. They weigh 40kg per m2 and are how professional soundproofing is retrofitted to floors. They also cost a fortune. 

I've done soundproof carpet tiles when building cinema rooms in rented apartments. The weight of both solutions works also to mitigate effects of a suspended resonant floor.

Bigger is not always better. Someone I know has an open plan house and they cannot get their system to sound right. Stand mounted speakers are in a way similar to floor standers but they are generally more affordable. I have floor standers in a small listening room and they 'fill' up the room nicely. I've listened to some systems in a large room and there seemed to be something missing: a long lost desire for it to work but perhaps the speakers are not 'big' enough for the room. Size doesn't always matter: it's what you do with it that counts ????

If you're stuck with an upper suspended wooden floor then the lead sheet, (which can be topped with a layer of 19mm marine ply), is great. As Feelin Zen said lead sheet costs a bomb, and is the professional choice. Rubber/bitumous sheet, (the black stuff stuck to the underside of your sink), in a thicker guage works fairly well too. Not as well as lead sheet but still worthwhile.  As do some of the rubberised floating floor underlays, ($10-15 sq metre here in Australia).

Then use a decent carpet underlay and dense, preferably wool, carpet. Make sure you spike through all this with your speakers. 

The benefits are twofold. Generally better sound in your listening room and less transmission to adjoining rooms.

Considering what we spend on our black boxes, the expense is quite cost effective. I would do this even if you don't have an obvious room problem.

I have installed bigger speakers in smallish rooms many times. The qualities of a decent speaker shine almost everywhere, but bass can be an issue. Standing waves are difficult to engineer away if you have a bum room dimension and off course a small room simply doesn't allow very low bass to propogate.

Infinite baffle or isobarik loaded speakers can work better in smaller rooms.