NAIM AUDIO NAIM AUDIO annnounces ND5 XS 2, NDX 2 & ND 555 NETWORK PLAYERS

Whence comes that assessment of sounding 5% better? It might be 509% better sounding for all anyone knows, as at present as far as I am aware no-one outside of Naim has heard it, and they haven’t finished it yet. (This of course ignoring the meaningless nature of such terminology.)

After all, I couldn’t see how Hugo could be bettered, at least not to any significant degree, it sounding so much better than anything else I had heard. The small benefit HugoTT offered was consistent with that, three times the cost for a marginal improvement. Then I heard Dave, and it was just, literally, Wow! Perhaps NDS to ND555 is Naim’s equivalent of Hugo to Dave.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Whence comes that assessment of sounding 5% better? It might be 509% better sounding for all anyone knows, as at present as far as I am aware no-one outside of Naim has heard it, and they haven’t finished it yet. (This of course ignoring the meaningless nature of such terminology.)

After all, I couldn’t see how Hugo could be bettered, at least not to any significant degree, it sounding so much better than anything else I had heard. The small benefit HugoTT offered was consistent with that, three times the cost for a marginal improvement. Then I heard Dave, and it was just, literally, Wow! Perhaps NDS to ND555 is Naim’s equivalent of Hugo to Dave.

the hypothesis of 5% better is only to explain , by also an hypothesis, why the nds is discontinued.  Perhaps not to put in the shadow the nd555.

But of course there are other also other possibilities :  4 streamers are too much, or the nds uses components no longer produced.....

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Whence comes that assessment of sounding 5% better? It might be 509% better sounding for all anyone knows, as at present as far as I am aware no-one outside of Naim has heard it, and they haven’t finished it yet. (This of course ignoring the meaningless nature of such terminology.)

After all, I couldn’t see how Hugo could be bettered, at least not to any significant degree, it sounding so much better than anything else I had heard. The small benefit HugoTT offered was consistent with that, three times the cost for a marginal improvement. Then I heard Dave, and it was just, literally, Wow! Perhaps NDS to ND555 is Naim’s equivalent of Hugo to Dave.

the hypothesis of 5% better is only to explain , by also an hypothesis, why the nds is discontinued.  Perhaps not to put in the shadow the nd555.

But of course there are other also other possibilities :  4 streamers are too much, or the nds uses components no longer produced.....

What puzzles me though is why discontinue it now, well before the ND555 ships?   

If the Uniti range is an indicator of how well actual delivery matches announced delivery, we've got another twelve months at least before we can actually buy an ND555, haven't we?

So if I'm in the market for a top-of-the-range streamer in the next year and I can't buy an NDS, where do I go?   ...Scotland probably

rjstaines posted:

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Whence comes that assessment of sounding 5% better? It might be 509% better sounding for all anyone knows, as at present as far as I am aware no-one outside of Naim has heard it, and they haven’t finished it yet. (This of course ignoring the meaningless nature of such terminology.)

After all, I couldn’t see how Hugo could be bettered, at least not to any significant degree, it sounding so much better than anything else I had heard. The small benefit HugoTT offered was consistent with that, three times the cost for a marginal improvement. Then I heard Dave, and it was just, literally, Wow! Perhaps NDS to ND555 is Naim’s equivalent of Hugo to Dave.

the hypothesis of 5% better is only to explain , by also an hypothesis, why the nds is discontinued.  Perhaps not to put in the shadow the nd555.

But of course there are other also other possibilities :  4 streamers are too much, or the nds uses components no longer produced.....

What puzzles me though is why discontinue it now, well before the ND555 ships?   

If the Uniti range is an indicator of how well actual delivery matches announced delivery, we've got another twelve months at least before we can actually buy an ND555, haven't we?

So if I'm in the market for a top-of-the-range streamer in the next year and I can't buy an NDS, where do I go?   ...Scotland probably

perhaps they have enough nds in stock for one year or they can’t produce anymore because of discontinued components inside the nds.  A bit curious anyway.

I suspect that Naim have sold very few NDS in the last year and so dropped it ahead of the announcement of the new streamers. Naim don't hold stock of built units, so there won't be a pile of NDS in the factory at Salisbury. There may be one or two ex-demo units at Naim dealers, but I bet most of them have already been quietly sold on.

best

David

I bought my NDS last July and it arrived early October, time gap attributed to the NDS was under construction so I doubt they stockpile complete units or perhaps I was told a load of porkies or perhaps the 555PS was the delay...? T'was well worth the wait. Even now they're still improving after nearly 5mths. Doubt I could have afforded the ND555/555PSDR anyway even if anyone had mentioned it to me when ordering last year.

Anyone who has been on the factory tour will tell you that they build to order and don't hold stocks of complete units, so I'm sure your wait was genuine.

best

David

The exception being for new and highly anticipated products , such as the new Uniti range, which Naim cranked out in relatively large numbers in advance of final certification clearance. 

GregWPGibbs posted:

The exception being for new and highly anticipated products , such as the new Uniti range, which Naim cranked out in relatively large numbers in advance of final certification clearance. 

Yes but they had orders for all of those, so it wasn't an exception.....

best

David

Naim have traditionally always built everything bar the entry level kit to essentially order.  Regarding the latter, they build some for factory stock mainly to act as a buffer for dealers and distributors.  It never hangs around for long so it makes sense and means the factory can react quickly if there's a sudden spike in demand something delays production.

Oh, and I say "essentially" because, Statement aside,  it makes most sense to build kit in batches - it may be a small batch of 3 or 4 units in some cases, but due to efficiencies, it's rare that just one unit is built on its own

Here is a link: https://www.hifi.nl/artikel/26...werkspelers-aan.html

Bing Teng posted:

Here is a link: https://www.hifi.nl/artikel/26...werkspelers-aan.html

Dude, you should read the Naim forums too!

nigelb posted:

I raised the question of a NDS replacement at the Show and it ain't going to happen. I was told that the NDX2 was a significant improvement over the NDX and technically it was impossible to design and build a streamer (NDS replacement) that bridged the large price and performance gap that now lies between the NDX2 and the ND555.

So apparently the old NDS is the new NDS, but you can only get them secondhand. I'm therefore hanging on to mine!

Or looking at it that way.. the NDX is the new NDS. 

DUPREE posted:

nigelb posted:

I raised the question of a NDS replacement at the Show and it ain't going to happen. I was told that the NDX2 was a significant improvement over the NDX and technically it was impossible to design and build a streamer (NDS replacement) that bridged the large price and performance gap that now lies between the NDX2 and the ND555.

So apparently the old NDS is the new NDS, but you can only get them secondhand. I'm therefore hanging on to mine!

Or looking at it that way.. the NDX is the new NDS. 

I think they will sell as many ND555's as they can whilst keeping second hand NDS' values high then when sales of ND555's start to slow in a year or two we will see a NDS2

I doubt it....by then the industry will have moved on. If it took 3 years to get where they are now......and we have only a few snippets, this upgrade is not proving easy.

I cannot believe Naim would shoot themselves in the foot again and botch/delay the launch/availabilty of the ND555 and its new siblings. I was told in fairly certain terms at the Bristol Show that the ND555 should be on the market June/July time with the NDX2 to follow a very few months later.

I got the impression that the ND555 is technically ready with a few final tweaks and finessing left. This of course is only an impression based on the imminent launch time. I assume that all the certification is out of the way from the Uniti launch (with possibly the exception of one or two of the newest features - but surely lessons learned). It is a shame that our friends the other side of the pond forced Naim's hand somewhat over the announcement and hence launch of the ND555.

Personally I am looking forward to the new streamers, even though I am not in the market for one.

Things move on, it would not be surprising if the new NDX2 exceeds the existing NDS and the only realistic way to improve further was the ND555. It is possible there just is not a technological middle ground. At some point returns have diminished to the point of not providing a viable product at that price point. 

rjstaines posted:

Alba1320 posted:

(with apologies for going OT )

@ RJSTAINES

How are you getting on with the CD555? Good/bad/indifferent (particularly in light of being an NDS owner)?

Wouldn't be without either !

The CD555 has now been serviced and is doing what a CD555 does well... it's playing CDs.   But as you might imagine, what I'm hearing on those CDs is second to nothing I've ever heard from a CD player before, there's more of it and it's all in the right place.

And since you mention the NDS, on the rare occasion when curiosity overtakes me and I find myself listening to a CD and to the same album on the NDS, it's a similar effect to listeing to the same album on vinyl (LP12)... there's a notable difference.  One is not 'better' than another, they are different presentations.  Vinyl to digital you might describe as 'night and day',  CD555 to NDS you might desceribe as 'early morning to early evening'; both wonderful times of the day, and both are times to be enjoyed and savoured.

I'm wondering what the ND555 will bring with it.  There still will be differences in presentation and maybe the phrase 'night and day' will be bandied about more than it is now.  I for one can't wait to hear it.  Unfortunately I don't have a clue how I'm going to afford it.

Oh, and the ATC active SCM100's are warming up nicely, having been playing for around 10 hours a day for a few weeks now... am I missing my NAP500 and B&W 802 D2's ?   Absolutely not.

Roger

Apologies for being a little off topic.... but Roger, are you referring to DRing the CD555?  I see you are pleased, but how did you find the change?

Gavin

Everybody talks about the ND555 but with NDS out of the equation (and for reasons not difficult to guess) what would be of real interest to me would be the NDX2.

Now, several older threads seem to indicate the NDX was kind of 'unbalanced' when powered by a 555PS whereas the NAC272 is reported to have excellent synergy with the 555PS.

This and some information to the effect that NDX2 will be close to NDS performance seem to suggest that forthis to be the case the NDX2 should be able to work well with a 555PS. From the pictures I don't see two connectors so I doubt the NDX2 can make full use of  a 555PS - in which case I don't see how the NDX2 could come close to NDS performance levels.

OK, there is a lot of conjecture in the above reasoning so comments welcome!

DrPo posted:

 

OK, there is a lot of conjecture in the above reasoning so comments welcome!

Indeed, lots of conjecture in your comment 

But one thing is true : NDX2 includes its own power supply, which obviously isn't the best solution in terms of sound. That was not the solution adopted with the NDS or the upcoming and very discussed ND555

Naim have chosen to stay with external power supplies with the new streamers, because selling external power supplies is a low risk way of earning extra income on what are probably quite high margin products.

But with modern components and a more sophisticated understanding of what is happening re filtering and so on, it shouldn't be necessary to have external power supplies. All other manufacturers manage without and Nova and Core (and Statement!) demonstrate that even Naim can make very good internal power supplies if they want to.

best

David

So much conjecture! This is my attempt to view it logically:

It is probably safe to assume that ND555 will be a significant step up on NDS, because otherwise what is the point and why would people upgrade at significant increase in cost?  So whether or not people can imagine something better, it should be. Whether or not it uses one or two (or no) external power supplies is no measure of how good it might sound, given that Naim will have optimised by whatever means they have.

NDX2 should be a distinct step up from NDX, but whether or not as good as NDS is open to question - as they have discontinued NDS before releasing NDX2 it wouldn’t hurt sales of NDS, though understandably recent purchasers of NDS may be peeved - but that is progress, and happens all the time in areas of advancing technology.

As for ND5XS2, the question there is whether it might prove as good as old NDX, with same observation there as above re NDX2 vs NDS...  Meanwhile the release of ND5XS decries the rumours of the “XS series” being killed off (whatever the series, is other than slimmer cases).

I agree - it shouldn't be necessary to have an external power supply. If you're trying to squeeze the last ounce of performance out of the product, moving the PSU out of the box containing the sensitive bits makes one less problem to engineer around. 

David Hendon posted:

...But with modern components and a more sophisticated understanding of what is happening re filtering and so on, it shouldn't be necessary to have external power supplies. All other manufacturers manage without and Nova and Core (and Statement!) demonstrate that even Naim can make very good internal power supplies if they want to.

David, yes, I agree that with the Nova, Naim have shown just how far they can take performance of an all-in-one with a power supply in close proximity to the rest of the electronics in the unit.  I wouldn't include the Statement here though, mainly because with the supply in the base unit there's a clear physical disconnect and also distance between the power supply from the rest of the electronics, only really made possible because of the design, the sheer size and the availability of "real estate" with which to do so. So in essence it has all the benefits of separate dedicated supplies but in a joined up structure.

All else being equal, I think it's still the case that physically separating the power supply from the rest of the electronics brings improved performance.  And while it is probably shown to best advantage in the pre-amp and source, it can even be shown quite easily in the power amp as well - just take the NAP250DR vs. the NAP300DR.  Essentially they share the same of everything bar space (and extra heat sinking and fan control on the NAP300), yet superb though the NAP250DR undoubtedly is, the NAP300 performs better still.

It is a disappointment about the need for external power supplies;  methinks David  is not far off with the opportunity for extra revenue & high margins.   My main disappointment is that SMPS's haven't started to make an appearance,  especially with the constant power load items like streamers.  I know, I know,  this is a long & well trodden old goat trail,  but Linn seem to have succeeded in making a success of them,  why not Naim ??