NAIM AUDIO NAIM AUDIO annnounces ND5 XS 2, NDX 2 & ND 555 NETWORK PLAYERS

As Richard says above, the 300 is very much better than the 250, but at the cost of an extra box and two big fat burndies that are a real pain. My setup has grown to four boxes, which is more than I intended, but it fits neatly on one rack. But to improve it means six boxes, and loads of wires, which is just too much. It’s where a Linn KDS and a power amp, or something like a Vitus integrated becomes of real interest. If a Vitus SIA025 really can compare with a 552/500, and at half the price, and all in one box, it’s got to be worth looking at. 

Mike-B posted:

It is a disappointment about the need for external power supplies;  methinks David  is not far off with the opportunity for extra revenue & high margins.   My main disappointment is that SMPS's haven't started to make an appearance,  especially with the constant power load items like streamers.  I know, I know,  this is a long & well trodden old goat trail,  but Linn seem to have succeeded in making a success of them,  why not Naim ??        

Mike, every time I've asked the guys at Naim R&D about this it all boils down to one thing - sound performance.  And of all the things that Naim may list during a business review of "what is Naim all about?", performance is always right at the top of that list. 

Of course, legislation my ultimately be the decider here, but as long as Naim's linear PSUs sound best, and w/w regs allow their use, I'm fairly sure Naim will keep using them.  Or, unless there's a breakthrough in some other PSU technology that Naim judge exceeds the performance of what's current.

Well I was being deliberately provocative. As my day business trip to Dublin today got cancelled out by the weather, I've got to keep myself amused! But nevertheless I think some of the old adages do need looking at again from time to time. So here goes another one:

I read a member's comment earlier today speculating whether the NDX2 would be voiced to be in the mold of the NDX or the softer sound of the NDS (my words but that was the gist of the comment.)  

So why don't Naim offer user-selectable DSP characteristics so that users can choose what they like? Hiding behind the "it would affect the ultimate SQ" is all very well, but it needn't do that. And don't forget, relatively few of Naim's customers have all three of: a room like Naim's listening room, Focal loudspeakers and the exact same musical tastes as the Naim testers.

best

David

Richard,  like I said in my note,   this is a long & well trodden old goat trail,  but Linn seem to have succeeded in making a success of them,  so sorry but I don't buy the reasoning from Naim in its entirety.       And I agree legislation may ultimately be the decider,  it really makes no sense to have something like a 555PS with its way OTT sized transformer powering just a few mAmps

Well, I'm pretty happy to re-use 2x555PS. Also MSB technology is doing the same, dual power supplies to the coming Reference DAC digital and analog side. IMO it makes sense, no matter how much I like Linn simplicity.

David, You'd have to ask Naim about that but I'd imagine the reason there's no choice given is that Naim aim to achieve the best sound they can from each device - something that is ultimately signed off by one person, the keeper of the Naim sound (currently Roy).  So if you give alternative to that, what are you saying?  That second (or third) best is good enough too?

Mike-B posted:

And I agree legislation may ultimately be the decider,  it really makes no sense to have something like a 555PS with its way OTT sized transformer powering just a few mAmps

Interestingly something similar to this was mentioned in a video i was watching the other night - google 'Factory Tour : PS Audio Stereophile'. At 27:40 in the video they start talking about the large toroid in the pre-amp. In current draw terms, it really doesn't need a transformer of this capacity but they go the larger than necessary route due to its effect on SQ. 

James

David Hendon posted:

:

I read a member's comment earlier today speculating whether the NDX2 would be voiced to be in the mold of the NDX or the softer sound of the NDS (my words but that was the gist of the comment.)  

So why don't Naim offer user-selectable DSP characteristics so that users can choose what they like? Hiding behind the "it would affect the ultimate SQ" is all very well, but it needn't do that. And don't forget, relatively few of Naim's customers have all three of: a room like Naim's listening room, Focal loudspeakers and the exact same musical tastes as the Naim testers.

best

David

Shouldn’t it - or rather they - be voiced to be absolutely neutral, if sound quality is what it is all about? 

But then, is absolute neutrality what people want?

Giving the user what amounts to tone controls is another matter - if that has no detriment to sound quality other than tailoring of a frequency response perhaps to balance one’s room or to suit audio preferences, then why not, but for purists there should be the equivalent of a ‘tone defeat’ setting of absolute neutrality.

Richard Dane posted:

David, You'd have to ask Naim about that but I'd imagine the reason there's no choice given is that Naim aim to achieve the best sound they can from each device - something that is ultimately signed off by one person, the keeper of the Naim sound (currently Roy).  So if you give alternative to that, what are you saying?  That second (or third) best is good enough too?

Obviously not that.

But what might sound best with one speaker choice in one room on a range of recordings familiar to the engineers might not sound best on a different set of speakers in a different room on different music, especially to a different listener. If you look at some of the recent Quad offerings, they do allow the listener to choose from a number of different DSP settings. I haven't heard them myself so can't comment on how successful they are, but the reviews have been good and they are doing this for a lot less money than Naim charge us.

The argument against traditional tone controls was always that the added circuitry took away SQ. But changing some of the DSP coefficients wouldn't be doing adding circuitry. The sound would be different rather than better or worse.

If I make the analogy, which I have made here before, with my car, I can choose different engine management settings, automatic gearchange points and suspension settings at a press of a button. No doubt one gives best performance and handling, but if I want a more "comfortable" ride or better economy over outright performance, I can choose and indeed I can and do change the selection according to the road I'm on and the mood I'm in. If BMW does this, why wouldn't Naim do it too?

best

David

Richard Dane posted:

David Hendon posted:

...But with modern components and a more sophisticated understanding of what is happening re filtering and so on, it shouldn't be necessary to have external power supplies. All other manufacturers manage without and Nova and Core (and Statement!) demonstrate that even Naim can make very good internal power supplies if they want to.

David, yes, I agree that with the Nova, Naim have shown just how far they can take performance of an all-in-one with a power supply in close proximity to the rest of the electronics in the unit.  I wouldn't include the Statement here though, mainly because with the supply in the base unit there's a clear physical disconnect and also distance between the power supply from the rest of the electronics, only really made possible because of the design, the sheer size and the availability of "real estate" with which to do so. So in essence it has all the benefits of separate dedicated supplies but in a joined up structure.

All else being equal, I think it's still the case that physically separating the power supply from the rest of the electronics brings improved performance.  And while it is probably shown to best advantage in the pre-amp and source, it can even be shown quite easily in the power amp as well - just take the NAP250DR vs. the NAP300DR.  Essentially they share the same of everything bar space (and extra heat sinking and fan control on the NAP300), yet superb though the NAP250DR undoubtedly is, the NAP300 performs better still.

As someome who went from 250-2 non DR to a 300 non DR I can attest to the sonic improvements that you get by seperating the power supplies from the electronics.  Of course wether or not you are prepared to accomodate the extra box is personal choice but let us not be mistaken by not having that extra box you are compromising on sound quality.

The modern fashion for living inside large empty white rooms and having things like hifi shrink and shrink until they disappear isn't one I personally aspire to but if it is something that you feel you need rest assured you are compromising the sound quality of your system.  Wether it is small unobtrusive speakers or all in one systems by shrinking your system you are compromising on sound, even something like the two box system of the 272/250 if you want to get maximum SQ can quickly become a 272/XPS/300 or 272/555/300 four box system

This of course may well change in the future and even at present other brands my say they can reach the same sonic levels with less boxes but Naim Audio's philosophy remains the same, yes of course they have to move with the times and offer what it is that consumers want but I'm sure that a Naim designed system 100% true to the Naim sound would consist of multiple boxes.

Well yes, DSP could in theory allow some sort of effective room optimisation and also give you options to tailor too.  However, the question is, how well can that be achieved (on the basis that no two rooms will be the same) without someone such as Roy or Steve from Naim doing the DSP fine tuning for your particular listening room...?  

The results of DSP can be amazing - witness what can be done in say the Bentley car compared to no DSP. But that's been hard programmed by engineers where the space and all constraints are known.  Unfortunately, the home DSP systems I've heard so far may have managed to dial out many of the more obvious problems, but have not particularly engaged me either, so perhaps something else in introduced that is not good. Ironically I recall one early dem where the manufacturer placed the blame for the lacklustre sound on...  the room! However, It's early days, so perhaps some kind of DSP version of a graphic equaliser where every facet could be fine tuned by the end user might be appealing. I'm open minded, but I don't think we're quite there just yet.

Richard Dane posted:

However, It's early days, so perhaps some kind of DSP version of a graphic equaliser where every facet could be fine tuned by the end user might be appealing. I'm open minded, but I don't think we're quite there just yet.

I seem to recall a comment from Naim a year or so ago, that they had looked at adding DSP to the streamers when the 272 was in development, but decided it wasn't worth the compromise in sound quality at the time. Perhaps things will move on - or perhaps they will be happy to leave it to Roon, who already have a built in DSP function that could be used with the new Naim streamers.

David Hendon posted:

 

But with modern components and a more sophisticated understanding of what is happening re filtering and so on, it shouldn't be necessary to have external power supplies. All other manufacturers manage without and Nova and Core (and Statement!) demonstrate that even Naim can make very good internal power supplies if they want to.

best

David

and it's not just Linn. I have for example heard the Burmester 151 music center, it is a fantastic server / streamer which does not seem to have a toroidal in place at all...

The streamers, including the 272, already have DSP in them. And I'm not talking about room correction.

Anyway I've stirred the pot enough. I'm going back to listening to my one of my Naim streamers without adjustable DSP!

best

David

Sorry David, I thought you were talking about using DSP to take into account for different rooms, different speakers etc..

No apologies needed Richard.  As I said I was being deliberately provocative. The thought was sparked this time by someone speculating whether the NDX2 would be voiced to be more or less like the NDS.

best

David

You should have come to Dublin, instead of causing trouble here!

.sjb

I would have done John but they closed Dublin airport (some nonsense about adverse weather.....)

best

David

I know the previous similar thread mentioned the lack of a screen on the ND5 XS2 and I still feel this is a mistake. While not needing this for day to day use it is invaluable for sorting out network problems. If the device doesn't play it can be very helpful to know that the screen says "not connected" as you can often solve this using the buttons on the unit or the remote. I have never been able to solve an issue with my iPad. I am not even sure if the new unit comes with a remote any more or just uses a control point. I do understand that it may not have been possible to get a screen to fit, and there may have been money saving measures employed but this unit will be bought by some people with limited network skills and this will make ownership harder.

Mike

In terms of connectivity: chrome cast and airplay are on the players, but no mention of support for other streaming services. Tidal and Spotify are mentioned.

having to use a device to hook up other streaming services through chrome cast or airplay is not the best way and by 2018 and having the experience Naim has now with streaming, I would expect more.

Naim website has a Tidal and Spotify for new streamers.

Mike1960 posted:

I know the previous similar thread mentioned the lack of a screen on the ND5 XS2 and I still feel this is a mistake. While not needing this for day to day use it is invaluable for sorting out network problems. If the device doesn't play it can be very helpful to know that the screen says "not connected" as you can often solve this using the buttons on the unit or the remote. I have never been able to solve an issue with my iPad. I am not even sure if the new unit comes with a remote any more or just uses a control point. I do understand that it may not have been possible to get a screen to fit, and there may have been money saving measures employed but this unit will be bought by some people with limited network skills and this will make ownership harder.

Mike

Another way for Naim to give access to this information but at much lower cost than a display on the unit would be to make this information available via the web server which I expect the new streamers will anyway include.

So quite apart from whether the Naim app as control point can see the streamer, the customer could navigate to the web server using a browser. They will need to discover the IP address, which if the app isn't finding the streamer and if it has no display will require another step, but there are plenty of free apps that will tell you the IP address of everything on your network.

best

David

Since the new platform integrated units & now especially with the new ND streamers (& the ND5 without a display),  it got me thinking & being aware of how much I actually look at my NDX screen.  I have it timed to go off at 30 secs,  but even so I just don't look at it, it's all done on the iPad,   the most I ever use it is during firmware upgrades,   so I don't see a colour display screen as a feature value as such.  

Someone I know has a Nova & the display screen appears to be causing a family feud,  he wants it off,  significant other wants it on.   

Mike-B posted:

I know, I know,  this is a long & well trodden old goat trail,  but Linn seem to have succeeded in making a success of [using SMPS],  why not Naim ??        

Without planting my flag firmly in pro or anti SMPS camps... how do you know the Linn devices aren’t being held back by their use of SMPS.  Perhaps if they gave the option to upgrade via external Linear PSU they would sound even better.

I don’t think you can dismiss Naim’s thoughts on the subject by pointing to another manufacturer who do things differently.  If you are happy with the performance of Linn: buy Linn.  If you like the sound of Naim: buy Naim.

Mike-B posted:

Since the new platform integrated units & now especially with the new ND streamers (& the ND5 without a display),  it got me thinking & being aware of how much I actually look at my NDX screen.  I have it timed to go off at 30 secs,  but even so I just don't look at it, it's all done on the iPad,   the most I ever use it is during firmware upgrades,   so I don't see a colour display screen as a feature value as such.  

.   

Ditto when I had an ND5XS.

EXCEPT when first setting up, and later when anything went wrong and I couldn’t communicate via the app - when otherwise it would be a dumb black box with no way of knowing whether the problem was it or something affecting communication with it. (And being essesntially a computer inside, it did occasionally lock up or misbehave in some way - usual cure a reboot.)