Final Turntable - RP10/Apheta 2 vs LP12 Majik

Mr Frog posted:

Sorry for the size of this lengthy epic posting ...... I just want to put it into perspective.

Okay ... I've been posting recently on this forum about decisions in respect of my final turntable.

I say final, since I have no intention to enter the upgraditis treadmill scenario (with analogue) and simply want to be musically fulfilled from the outset.

To recap, I have approx 300 LP's that I want to sound as good as my Naim digital source (which will be the focus of later upgrades). Unfortunately, my existing Rega Planar 3 doesn't satisfy as much as the digital ... so inevitably, it doesn't get used!

I have invested in a Rega Aria mm/mc phono stage, which is excellent and was about to purchase a Rega RP8/Apheta 2 and add the Neo PSU .....

However, I made the mistake today of comparing the RP8 (albeit with its dedicated TT-PSU) to the RP10 .... fully expecting to be more than satisfied with the RP8.

Sadly this wasn't the case for me (and yes, we all hear things differently) because it didn't bring that "night and day" improvement in sound quality, compared to what I already have. Clearly the RP8 was superior to my Planar 3 ... but the RP10, was definitely the level of improvement that I was seeking 

So, I've pretty much decided upon the Rega RP10/Apheta 2, to go with my Rega Aria and job done!

Vinyl will at last, sound fantastic and I can concentrate on upgrading the digital Naim source .... leaving the analogue well alone for the occasional times that I play records (difficult finding time for a serious listening session with twin 8 year olds!! ... far easier to use the streamer and internet radio for Radio Paradise)

So what is the problem?

Well, in a previous life I owned a Linn LP12/Trampolin/Lingo/Ekos/Klyde in an all Linn active Keltik system ... which I sold in 1999 and replaced with active ATC and later invested in the Naim streamer with Hugo as DAC. I certainly wouldn't invest that amount in a Linn LP12 again, but I had it before CD's came along 

I suppose its nostalgia and also the fact that my vinyl collection isn't getting played, that leads me to want to actually use it again (over 18 years later and yes the vinyl is in perfect clean condition ... so no worries there).

Now living in New Zealand presents a problem in respect of comparing products.

The Rega dealer doesn't stock Linn and the Linn guy doesn't do high end Rega ... plus he claims that he would have to buy an RP10 from the distributor in order to do the comparison! So obviously, that isn't going to happen.

I've listened to the awesome aforementioned Rega and it sounds excellent .... I also previously listened to the Linn LP12 Majik at the Linn store and compared it to their Akurate level. To my ears, I was struggling to tell the difference, it was too slight (to my ears) .... hence the reason why I have no aspirations to upgrade, if I buy the LP12 Majik.

Why upgrade to Akurate level tonearms and PSU's, if having heard it compared to Majik, wasn't worth the outlay .... (to my ears)

The problem is, the Linn guys claims that the Majik level (Project arm and Adikt cartridge) will always "easily outperform any Rega" 

This might be total BS ... but without being afforded the opportunity of a direct comparison, how can I possibly know, one way or the other.

If I was back in the UK, it would be extremely easy.

Simply pop to my nearest Linn and Rega dealer and know for sure ... but this isn't possible on this remote paradise in the South Pacific 

I'm sure there will be some fine forum members who have compared the two decks, who can help.

I would normally just go for the RP10, but I'm concerned if Linn dealers are claiming that the LP12 Majik will easily beat it (for NZD $2,500 less than the Rega)

 

Help!!!!!

Some years ago i read a review on stereophile comparing rega rp9 ( very near the level of rp10) to the linn lp12, ekos, lingo, with same level of cartridges. The reviewer preferred the rega, but said the level of performance was the same.

The linn majik is not on the level of lp12/lingo/ekos: no psu for the motor and the arm is an entry level arm made by project, so not an ekos.  

So it is not possible for the linn majik to compete with a turntable like the rp10 , which have a good standard psu, a wonderful rb2000 arm and an mc cartridge that is better than the mm addict on the linn majik.  The linn dealer you were talking about is a stupid and not honest guy.

I am just surprised that you found the rp10 so much better vs the rp8, even without the psu. 

I had before the rp25, one level before the rp9, and then the rp9:  i didn’t found the differences night and day.

Hi,

Im biased so let’s get that straight from the start, I’ve never understood the obsession with the Linn. Of course in its various guises it makes great music but throughout my now long music history I’ve always thought it outperformed particularly by Roksan, Avid and others.  

A little while ago I heard a RP10 at a speaker demonstration in lieu of a Roksan as the dealer didn’t stock the latter.  Frankly I thought the Rega sublime.   He then substituted a keeled/trampoline/Ekos LP12 and I would have taken the RP10 any day.

It strikes me the dealer who isn’t stocking the RP10 is recommending the LP12 - at the risk of being cynical he would wouldn’t he?

Regards,

Lindsay 

then you upgrade the lp12 then again and again and again.... and set it up again and again....

why dont you also check Dr.Feickert, Brinkmann, translator... they offer good looking and sounding decks with a closer range to RP10, if they are available in New Zealand... i miss New Zealand, i did finish the Vic in Wellington...

all these brands got very good propositions vs rega ( which sounds good as well ) 

just my 2 cents to say a world exists outside rega/linn and does not exists outside Naim

If you were minded to upgrade stuff in the future then you should consider the LP12. But you are not, so don’t and go with the RP10 which is one of the very best TTs out there.

Regards

David

I recently switched my Apheta 2 for a Lyra Delos on my P9.  Totally made me realize what a great table the P9 can be.  And how I never really liked the Apheta line.  I owned both the Apheta 1 and 2.  Long story short, go with the Rega but try a different cartridge is my personal advice and experience.

You WILL run in the upgrade trap if you‘ll go with LP12! That’s the problem...

It's one of the drawbacks of living here in NZ, that the small population limits the ability to compare brands. Like living anywhere, there are rewards in other areas of life to counterbalance the negative aspects.

Have a chat with Chris Murphy at Real Music Wellington if you haven't already. He is the Naim/Rega/Lyra importer, but he is all about service and will advise you on the best cartridge option if you decide to go the RP10 way. I suspect that a Rega RP10/Lyra will give you considerably more detail than the entry Linn model, but might also possibly be a leaner sounding presentation than the LP12. Best to try in your own system and see if it has synergy with your room/speakers/amps.

If you are in one of the major cities, you could approach Shore HiFi (Auckland), Real Music Co (Wellington) or Pure HiFi (Christchurch) for a home demo of the Rega, if you haven't heard it in your own system yet. Forums can be helpful sometimes for a consensus, but your ears are the only real certainty. Do your best to demo them in your system. If you are spending NZ$8k or so on turntable and cart, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask if you are a serious buyer.

I replaced my LP12 with a Nottingham Analogue turntable. To my ears it was a big jump up from the Linn in almost every way, except that it doesn't have quite the same boogie. So, I get how someone could prefer the LP12 to it, just as someone might prefer a Nait to a mega-bucks non-Naim amp for similar reasons. If you like that Linn presentation, then no Rega is going to sound the same, even if it is subjectively better.

If you like the RP10 then don't care what others say - get the RP10. I recently went through the same process of getting my final turntable and ended up with an Akurate level LP12. I had compared the LP12 Majik to the new Rega P6 (Neo) with the Ania MC cartridge (not necessarily a fair comparison, but that's what was available at the time at my dealer's) and preferred the LP12 Majik. The Rega was more "snappy" and detailed (probably due to the Ania cartridge) but there was a calmness/control with the LP12 that I preferred. The difference wasn't huge though. I then went with the Akurate level as I had the funds and wanted to get my final turntable in one go - not end up in the upgrade paranoia, constantly worrying about what I might be missing (also, I don't like the Project tonearm from an aesthetics point of view and since an upgrade to an Akito is quite substantial in itself I thought I might as well go for the full Akurate package from the start). To be honest, I think the Linn LP12 is somewhat overpriced - not overrated, just too expensive - and I had some serious discussions with myself about whether I wanted to spend that much money. In the end I decided to go for it as I have always wanted an LP12 and since to me it represents everything a turntable should look like. In terms of value for money the RP10 is probably a better buy, it just doesn't appeal to me personally in the same way that an RP12 does. I have no regrets about my decision and am very happy about how it looks and sounds (and it sounds great!). In my view the best decision you can make is to get the (best) turntable you want regardless of what others say (and if someone says that a Majik LP12 will always easily outperform any Rega then I wouldn't spend any more time there ...). Good luck deciding.

Mr Frog, regarding the comment from the Linn dealer, it may just be that it's old prejudices at play, or perhaps they're just a bit out of date? The RP10 (and to a slightly lesser extent the RP8) are game changing designs. Rega turntables have traditionally played second fiddle to the Linn Sondek - they were the deck you bought on the way to acquiring an LP12. However, all that changed with the introduction of the P9/Planar 9, which, performance-wise, took on the top level Sondek (and other top record decks) on equal terms. Since then, Rega have distilled Roy Gandy's theory on what makes a perfect turntable (here I would recommend a read of the Rega book; A Vibration Measuring Machine) and developed the money-no-object Naiad.  From this have come the slightly more earth-bound RP8 and RP10, very much based on the Naiad, but without the huge cost, and the latter which in my view can compare with pretty much any turntable/arm combo out there.  Just don't be fooled by the very reasonable price.

Anyway, best of luck in your search.  Sometimes, you hear something you really like and you just have to go with it without second guessing all the other possible alternatives...

If you don’t want to endlessly updgrade and maintain your turntable RP10 is your deck.
I’m in a fortunate position to own both LP12 and RP10 and both are stunning. I’d be hard pressed to make a choice - but if I had to make one - RP10 would be the one I take on a desert island with me.

Two words of advice with regards to RP10:

1. See if you can convince your dealer to give you an upgrade to an Aphelion cartridge (Apheta 2 is good - Aphelion is stunning). 

2. Phono-stage: Rega Aria is good - very good. And I highly recommend it. Unfortunately’ (for my wallet) I recently tried Naim SuperLine - it takes RP10 into another territory altogether. So SuperLine is staying.

In short - just get that RP10 and enjoy it 

Had a brief listen to an RP10 at the Bristol show. Can't remember which amplifier manufacturer was using it, do recall it was with B&W speakers. 

Ignoring the incessant, relentless, Boom, Boom, Boom of the speakers, focusing just on the frequency range above that, it was "rather interesting". I could hear a lot of joined up detail, very engaging. Being in the position where my next upgrade will be the turntable the RP10 is a serious contender against a Keel/Radikal/Ekos SE. 

Regards,

Willy. 

I have two points to make, one nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to upgrade an LP12 and if you are inclined to upgrade things you can spend enough upgrading an RP10 as well as an LP12. 

The second point is that a Linn Majik LP12 will not out perform a Rega RP10 so I would buy the Rega and I’m an LP12 owner however if you were to buy a used LP12 from a specialist dealer then that may be a different story. 

Mr Frog posted:

Sorry for the size of this lengthy epic posting ...... I just want to put it into perspective.

Okay ... I've been posting recently on this forum about decisions in respect of my final turntable.

I say final, since I have no intention to enter the upgraditis treadmill scenario (with analogue) and simply want to be musically fulfilled from the outset.

To recap, I have approx 300 LP's that I want to sound as good as my Naim digital source (which will be the focus of later upgrades). Unfortunately, my existing Rega Planar 3 doesn't satisfy as much as the digital ... so inevitably, it doesn't get used!

I have invested in a Rega Aria mm/mc phono stage, which is excellent and was about to purchase a Rega RP8/Apheta 2 and add the Neo PSU .....

However, I made the mistake today of comparing the RP8 (albeit with its dedicated TT-PSU) to the RP10 .... fully expecting to be more than satisfied with the RP8.

Sadly this wasn't the case for me (and yes, we all hear things differently) because it didn't bring that "night and day" improvement in sound quality, compared to what I already have. Clearly the RP8 was superior to my Planar 3 ... but the RP10, was definitely the level of improvement that I was seeking 

So, I've pretty much decided upon the Rega RP10/Apheta 2, to go with my Rega Aria and job done!

Vinyl will at last, sound fantastic and I can concentrate on upgrading the digital Naim source .... leaving the analogue well alone for the occasional times that I play records (difficult finding time for a serious listening session with twin 8 year olds!! ... far easier to use the streamer and internet radio for Radio Paradise)

So what is the problem?

Well, in a previous life I owned a Linn LP12/Trampolin/Lingo/Ekos/Klyde in an all Linn active Keltik system ... which I sold in 1999 and replaced with active ATC and later invested in the Naim streamer with Hugo as DAC. I certainly wouldn't invest that amount in a Linn LP12 again, but I had it before CD's came along 

I suppose its nostalgia and also the fact that my vinyl collection isn't getting played, that leads me to want to actually use it again (over 18 years later and yes the vinyl is in perfect clean condition ... so no worries there).

Now living in New Zealand presents a problem in respect of comparing products.

The Rega dealer doesn't stock Linn and the Linn guy doesn't do high end Rega ... plus he claims that he would have to buy an RP10 from the distributor in order to do the comparison! So obviously, that isn't going to happen.

I've listened to the awesome aforementioned Rega and it sounds excellent .... I also previously listened to the Linn LP12 Majik at the Linn store and compared it to their Akurate level. To my ears, I was struggling to tell the difference, it was too slight (to my ears) .... hence the reason why I have no aspirations to upgrade, if I buy the LP12 Majik.

Why upgrade to Akurate level tonearms and PSU's, if having heard it compared to Majik, wasn't worth the outlay .... (to my ears)

The problem is, the Linn guys claims that the Majik level (Project arm and Adikt cartridge) will always "easily outperform any Rega" 

This might be total BS ... but without being afforded the opportunity of a direct comparison, how can I possibly know, one way or the other.

If I was back in the UK, it would be extremely easy.

Simply pop to my nearest Linn and Rega dealer and know for sure ... but this isn't possible on this remote paradise in the South Pacific 

I'm sure there will be some fine forum members who have compared the two decks, who can help.

I would normally just go for the RP10, but I'm concerned if Linn dealers are claiming that the LP12 Majik will easily beat it (for NZD $2,500 less than the Rega)

 

Help!!!!!

I would forget what Linn dealers claim to be honest

Looking at the entry level Project tonearm I'd say anything from Planar 1 and up would be my preferred

The new Planar 6 with Ania would be my choice for occasional listening even the very best deck I heard was from Vertere.

If buying Lp12 it should at least contain an Ittok or Nima tonearm and access to experts for optimised setup. Guess the Adikt is not optimised for your Aria.

If money is no object the RP10 is offcourse very nice, allthough beeing a bit tired myself of the bling" gloss black RP finish. I would hope the upcoming Planar successor to replace RP range finally gets a visually improvement too. With Planar 6 matte finish they seem to have listenened to customers wanting less bling"

Bob the Builder posted:

I have two points to make, one nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to upgrade an LP12 and if you are inclined to upgrade things you can spend enough upgrading an RP10 as well as an LP12. 

The second point is that a Linn Majik LP12 will not out perform a Rega RP10 so I would buy the Rega and I’m an LP12 owner however if you were to buy a used LP12 from a specialist dealer then that may be a different story. 

Excellent points well made

Also being an lp12 owner ..I could not agree more with Bob

The LP is made for people ( like me) who constantly fiddle about buying this and changing that ..and it makes me happy ( and mad in equal measure)

Get the rega ..it's a great deck ..and leave the linn to the hopeless tweakers who cannot leave well alone

Richard Dane posted:

Mr Frog, regarding the comment from the Linn dealer, it may just be that it's old prejudices at play, or perhaps they're just a bit out of date? The RP10 (and to a slightly lesser extent the RP8) are game changing designs. Rega turntables have traditionally played second fiddle to the Linn Sondek - they were the deck you bought on the way to acquiring an LP12. However, all that changed with the introduction of the P9/Planar 9, which, performance-wise, took on the top level Sondek (and other top record decks) on equal terms. Since then, Rega have distilled Roy Gandy's theory on what makes a perfect turntable (here I would recommend a read of the Rega book; A Vibration Measuring Machine) and developed the money-no-object Naiad.  From this have come the slightly more earth-bound RP8 and RP10, very much based on the Naiad, but without the huge cost, and the latter which in my view can compare with pretty much any turntable/arm combo out there.  Just don't be fooled by the very reasonable price.

Anyway, best of luck in your search.  Sometimes, you hear something you really like and you just have to go with it without second guessing all the other possible alternatives...

Richard - out of interest will the Naiad ever be in production.I remember it was announced 3 -4 years ago ?

Mr Frog - I would go for the RP10 or RP8.As I think you would get a better sound for your money and I am a LP 12 user.But you must try to compare yourself - Good luck.

TC, yes, the Naiad is definitely a reality from what I could see in December - although I'm not sure that "production" is a suitable description of how it's built.  I'd imagine if the first units aren't already being delivered then it won't be long until they are.  You'll have to dig rather deep though to afford one...

Richard - Yeah like 30 -40 k deep....Having said that, its pretty much the norm with any companies Statement products amps - turntables.......new streamers 

I have an RP 10 and an Aria which I use with my 250DR and PMC PB1i Signatures in a fairly large room with plenty of soft furnishings.  I listen mostly to classical LPs made in the 50s and 60s but also Stones, Dylan and others which show my age.

Despite having ears which are old enough to have lost much of their high frequency reception, I thought the Alphetta was revealing but fatiguing and uncomfortably harsh.  I bought a Dynavector 20X2L low output MC which I love and I can listen to my LPs with that combination for hours.

i think the cartridge is the item which characterises  the sound more than any of the other pieces of equipment, possibly excepting the speakers.  The problem is that it is not easy to access demonstrations of several high quality cartridges so, in the end, choice is a leap of faith.  

There is no such thing as a final upgrade as long as you are alive and kicking with a bit of money in the bank, particularly when it comes to turntables and cartridges.

My Apheta observations were similar. Switched to Aphelion - night and day. That is why, earlier on in the thread, I recommended getting the RP10 with an Apehelion upgrade.

[@mention:50422353961216533]: Aria is very, very good. Just don’t try the SuperLine..... 

I'm reliably told that the Apheta 2 is appreciably better than the original Apheta - still quite forward and "up front" but more resolving and with much less harshness.  It's still quite a thrill ride though, and on the right LP it can be very exciting and totally enthralling. Considering what it costs, it's very very impressive.

I use mine with a Superline. At some point I will try some of my other MCs in the RP10 - AT OC-9 MLII, AT33PTGII, Koetsu Black, SPU Royal, Fidelity Research FR MK3.  I would also be keen to hear a Lyra, such a Delos or Kleos in the RP10 as I imagine these would probably work well.  However, for now I'm enjoying the Apheta 2 in the RP10 so much I'm in no great rush to fiddle about swapping carts...

Richard that's an impressive selection of cart's ...

I am very jealous.

I see now why SME made a turntable with two arms.  Pity it isn’t cheaper and better reviewed.

Richard Dane posted:

I'm reliably told that the Apheta 2 is appreciably better than the original Apheta - still quite forward and "up front" but more resolving and with much less harshness.  It's still quite a thrill ride though, and on the right LP it can be very exciting and totally enthralling. Considering what it costs, it's very very impressive.

I use mine with a Superline. At some point I will try some of my other MCs in the RP10 - AT OC-9 MLII, AT33PTGII, Koetsu Black, SPU Royal, Fidelity Research FR MK3.  I would also be keen to hear a Lyra, such a Delos or Kleos in the RP10 as I imagine these would probably work well.  However, for now I'm enjoying the Apheta 2 in the RP10 so much I'm in no great rush to fiddle about swapping carts...

Richard, I noticed that you sold your 401 but  kept the plinth and ARO.  The RP10 must be one hell of a TT or you, and others,  are seriously infatuated. Enjoy playing with your new toy!

Tony, I recently sold my original 401 but still have my most recent 401 that was a 50th birthday present - a lovely very early example that was rebuilt from scratch (and beautifully resprayed too with paint that's now way better than that provided by Garrard) by one of the 401 specialists. However, it's not getting so much play with the RP10 is situ...

Thanks everyone for all the awesome and highly useful responses ... much appreciated!

The Rega seems to be the ‘final solution’ for my vinyl needs ..... unless I’m prepared to upgrade parts of the Majik LP12 .... which doesn’t appeal (having been disappointed when I compared it to the far more expensive Akurate level .... certainly not night and day improvement for huge costs!)

I’m still perplexed as to why the Linn dealer maintains that the Majik version (in its basic form) will still easily outperform the RP10?

The fact that he won’t offer a side by side listening comparison, probably speaks volumes. But it caused me some self doubt, that I might be missing something.

Based on the responses to my post, I think not .... unless we are all missing something ????

I also considered the VPI Prime, which gets rave reviews. Unfortunately, the only dealer here in NZ, doesn’t even have a demo room .... so I would literally be buying something purely based on reviews .... not recommended without any audition at all.