Why am I doing this?

Do you and your brother differ in how you use your system for listening? Are you doing dedicated listening while for your brother it's simply background music to be heard throughout the house as he moves from room to room? Does the SQ in five different zones really compare to your dedicated SL'd system?  If the answer is yes you may need to re-examine your set up. Are you using a quality hi-fi rack? Have you attended to cable dressing, etc?  Did you buy your SL from a dealer? If so he/she ought to get to your home and ensure your system is playing at its best potential.

Provide all your system details and folks here might have some constructive suggestions for improvements on your end.

Maybe your brother is onto something.  Why not do it in parallel and begin selling off pieces that do not earn their keep?  That’s essentially what I did — I ended up decommissioning only Sonos and Macs, in the end, despite their admitted charms.  I don’t like the way album art works in iTunes vs UPnP; and syncing lossless files via the Cloud seemed (originally) to risk lossless files being made lossy in the translation — it became too complicated for me to be sure what was going on.  Promising idea, though, especially if lossless AIFF libraries could be maintained everywhere.  Maybe this has been addressed; too late, for me.

I am a Mac fan since 85, so I am inclined to favor the Apple offering.  ITunes really is great value for money.  It seems to me it used to be more user friendly a few years ago than it is today; but I have lost Apple’s plot lately, so it might just be me.

Nick

Hi Joerand - I don't really do dedicated listening.  That sounds like too much work.  I just enjoy having music playing, either sitting in front of my system or doing something else.  However, I am a stickler for sound quality - that's why i've got Naim gear for my second setup.  The main system consists of an EMM Labs CD/SACD player, a Burmester 082 integrated amp, and Proac Response D80 speakers.  Soon, I will also add an NDX.  My systems to my ear certainly sound better than my brother's setup.  No, it's not a lack of sound quality that I'm questioning.  I guess I'm just wondering how far this Audiophile trip should go.

Fair enough docmark, good to get your system details. I agree 'dedicated listening' shouldn't be work. For me it's a matter of allocating (when possible) time in my day to unwind with music, sans distractions.

How did you end up with Super Lumina in the mix?

Also, tell us about your racking, are you using a power strip, and what for mains cables? These may or may not help determine how far the trip goes.

Alas, I am not using a rack due to space constraints.  My Naim system actually sits on a computer desktop, the 272 on top of the 250DR.  The Core is off to one side.  I use Spdif out of the Core to the 272 via a Siltech Golden Eagle 75 ohm digital cable (sounds much better than using Ethernet, though I have not yet tried higher quality Ethernet cables).  My pre out from the 272 connects to a JL subwoofer via high-quality RCA Kimber Kables.  I use Crystal Cable Reference cables from the 250DR to my Burmester B10 speakers.  I use a Siltech Ruby Mountain II power cable for my 250DR, and Powerline cables for the Core and 272.  From the 272 to the 250DR, I am using a Super Lumina DIN to XLR cable.

My dealer tells me that I probably have the most expensive desktop system he's ever heard of.

Using a $6,000 power cable on a 250, especially when the 272 is placed on the 250 so that it sounds as bad as it can, does sound as though priorities are not quite right. You might be surprised how good it can all sound if set up optimally.

docmark posted:

He's quite content using Apple Music and CDs ripped to his computer.  He has 5 different zones in his house, all controlled with his iPhone.  Sure, Apple Music only streams at, I believe, 256kbs, but he's thrilled with what he's hearing, and I must admit that it sounds pretty good. 

It sounds like your brother is very happy with what he has - a good place to be.

As long as you get enjoyment from what you have, whether it's something basic or an audiophiles wet dream then that's the main thing - who cares what others think

Until I have more space, I can't do any better than I am at the moment.  With regard to the power cable, it was one that I had in my collection of cables & things.  I've collected a lot of cables over the years.  One that I did not have was the Siltech Golden Eagle digital cable, which I bought after hearing what a difference it made. With regard to sound quality, the system sounds fantastic, believe it or not.  Yes, I'm not thrilled that I'm stacking boxes, but as I said, I have no other option just yet.

Stop visiting your brother?

I undertook a little experiment after selling off most of my multi box Naim kit before a house move - just to see if I could enjoy a basic iTunes system. For the first time I ripped all my CDs to iTunes (no error correction and long before I’d heard of DBPoweramp), then played music solely via a Mac, iTunes and Harmon Kardon Soundsticks for about six months. When I eventually set up a simple Beresford DCA with my Nait2, even that basic system (in black box count terms) fed by the same Mac & iTunes was a total revelation in comparison - I simply couldn’t go back. Likewise, I listen mainly when preoccupied while working from home and find that inferior sound quality can be quite distracting, so won’t be heading back to something like Soundsticks any time soon.

Enjoy the system you have (despite your brothers opinion!) and take pleasure in what it can achieve. I’d certainly explore some sort of box isolation (even rudimentary) to serve those wonderful components appropriately.

What sort of box isolation can I do?

If someone is quite happy with mp3 and whatever cheap system they listen through, there is nothing wrong with that - in fact they are the lucky ones!

If it sounds good enough to you, then maybe it is time to re-evaluate - the money tied up in hifi kit surely can have other uses.

On the other hand if your system sounds better to you, it is only you who has to decide if it is worth the cost. Ask yourself: if you didn’t spend the money on hifi, what would spend it on, and would that give you more enjoyment (balanced over whatever timescale seems appropriate). From that you will have your answer.

In my own case, I don’t smoke, I don’t drink a lot, I don’t go out to restaurants/pubs/clubs much, I have an approach to cars that limits expenditure  (having long since recognised that the pleasure I get from driving is very transient, and never having been into one-upmanship ove neighbours). I have a nice house, and I do spend a lot on holidays with my wife and often other members of the family, deriving great pleasure both from the event and lasting memories. To me the significant monetary cost of my hifi, now and over the years, (expensive compared to some, far from it compared to other), has been worth it for the quality of sound it produces and which I appreciate - and at times I have been very frugal along my hifi path, buying a lot secondhand and tending to keep upgrades to significant steps, so satisfying my own need to feel I have not wasted money.

Neither of my brothers have systems anything like as “good” as mine (and never have, since I started my path building my first hifi system at the age of 15/16), but they have other things that to them are greater priorities for expenditure. I don’t criticise their systems or quality of music in their homes, and a discussion of cost of my gear or the sound quality in my house compared to theirs doesn’t arise, though I think it may have done in the early days, when they did seem to appreciate that my system sounded better than theirs - but they simply had different hobbies and interests.

Compared to what decent audio can sound like Apple Music is rubbish...No air, no detail, no frequency extremes, no finesse. Listening to and being happy with Apple Music is simply a matter of taste and experience. If you’ve never had better and its fully satisfying your needs, why bother with more? What is nuts is paying for equipment that does have all the above qualities, then failing to set it up properly so that its indistinguishable from Apple Music. Most people, audiophiles included have never heard all the information that is actually on a CD.

I don't criticize my brother's system - at least not too much.  I have given him audio equipment hand-me-downs over the years including a great-sounding pair of B&O speakers & subwoofer, a Weiss DAC, numerous cables, and I also bought him a Mu-So.  He is a wiz with Apple computers, and put together his sound system by himself (something that I would have had trouble doing).  And yes, he has other expenditures that I don't have on stuff that makes him happy.  Discussions on cost of gear don't arise very often, but then again, he knows that Naim gear is expensive, and he does not begrudge me that.  He knows that I have been an Audiofool for years.  I once put ebony pucks on my speakers to "shape" the sound - he exchanged them for drink coasters without me being aware of him having done it.  He is amused by the various tweaks I have tried over the years, but he knows that good quality sound is something that is important to me.

docmark posted:

What sort of box isolation can I do?

There are many designed for purpose options out there - dedicated isolation shelves per component (eg. Townsend), individual isolation feet bought singly (eg. Quadraspire have recently launched their QPlus component feet). If competent at DIY, there’s also the option of creating a home made solution, such as experimenting with combinations of wood / MDF / Ply / glass / laminate shelving for underneath each black box, using easily available spikes / cones etc for extra isolation.

When a student, I remember employing utilitarian slotted metal wall uprights & brackets to decent effect. I fitted the two uprights to the wall behind my desk, then placed the shelf brackets to ‘hover’ over the desk so the components weren’t touching. Then used two cross ply painted shelves per black box, with each top shelf isolated with three RDC cones. It was basic, but it worked. At the time, the tight budget only allowed for a home made solution, and if I have to swap back to a desk based system, I’d certainly employ this technique again.

Edit: A rather fetching picture of an NDX(?) wearing said Quadraspire Plus feet...

Blackmorec - my equipment, stacked as it is, far surpasses Apple Music.  Nowhere close.  If I had the proper rack for it, I'm sure it would sound even better.  I can also claim to having heard what information is on a CD, as I have a superb CD player in my main system that is properly set up on a rack.

Yetizone - I've got lots of isolation cones, feet, etc.  I'll give them a try.

You are sorted then!

docmark posted:

Alas, I am not using a rack due to space constraints.  My Naim system actually sits on a computer desktop, the 272 on top of the 250DR.  The Core is off to one side.  I use Spdif out of the Core to the 272 via a Siltech Golden Eagle 75 ohm digital cable (sounds much better than using Ethernet, though I have not yet tried higher quality Ethernet cables).  My pre out from the 272 connects to a JL subwoofer via high-quality RCA Kimber Kables.  I use Crystal Cable Reference cables from the 250DR to my Burmester B10 speakers.  I use a Siltech Ruby Mountain II power cable for my 250DR, and Powerline cables for the Core and 272.  From the 272 to the 250DR, I am using a Super Lumina DIN to XLR cable.

My dealer tells me that I probably have the most expensive desktop system he's ever heard of.

Your system is so far from working optimally.

Lack of any proper support

The cables to the sub are probably loading the preamp output of the 272 (unless they are very short or have additional load resistors inserted at the 272 end).

When properly optimised, UPnP is actually better than the S/PDif input.

A little more attention to your system will reap rich rewards in sound quality.

On the other hand, some people just don't notice even dramatic differences in things like dynamics, resolution, colouration or other 'sound quality' aspects of a system, in some cases even tonal balance goes unnoticed!  (For instance, they may listen only to the theme - totally ignoring the instrumental accompaniment, musical development of the theme, variations, counterpoint and rhythmic flow).  For them MP3 quality is fine, they need nothing more.

Huge posted:

 

When properly optimised, UPnP is actually better than the S/PDif input.

 

Is that an just assessment of the relative benefits of the inputs of the 272, as opposed to an assessment of the quality of the rendered output of the Core vs the 272’s renderer, or more particularly an assessment of the two devices paired in the two different manners?

Should it be the case that the two paired by ethernet sounds better than by SPDIF, then introducing a network between Core and 272 could present the OP with more to sort out to be sure that it is not having an adverse effect, which may be more challenging than ensuring the SPDIF connection is good.

Huge - you mentioned that the cables to the sub are probably loading the preamp output of the 272.  The length is 1.5m.  Could you expand on that please?  Also, how do I properly optimise for UPnP?  Better Ethernet cables?

For me Core to Nova was better with Spdif until I put a Cisco switch in instead of a to link switch, about the same now even with AQVodka cables .

Difference between S/PDif and UPnP/Ethernet is fundamental in two ways:
S/PDif is unbalanced, UPnP/Ethernet is balanced.  Balanced connections allow better suppression if electrical interference.
S/PDif is synchronous, UPnP/Ethernet is asynchronous.  Asynchronous connection allow for more consistent clocking and better buffering schemes.
However the advantage in realistic, practical terms is fairly small, and easily overwhelmed by environmental factors.  If you are getting a big difference in sound quality the less go one is being affected by sub-optimal conditions.

If all other things are equal, UPnP/Ethernet is theoretically superior to S/PDif (and in my experience I have found it so).  However some Ethernet networks are much more electrically noisy than others, and this can negate or even reverse the advantage.  Sorting out and optimising the network can then restore the advantage to UPnP/Ethernet .

docmark posted:

Huge - you mentioned that the cables to the sub are probably loading the preamp output of the 272.  The length is 1.5m.  Could you expand on that please?  Also, how do I properly optimise for UPnP?  Better Ethernet cables?

Kimber interconnects are low capacitance cables, so at 1.5m they're short enough to be fine.

No actual problem there!

A fellow I deal with in Vancouver has a product I'm going to try - Thixar silent feet.  It's a decoupling and damping device, made in Germany, and comes in a box of 4.  I'm going to try one set to begin with under the 272 & see (or rather, hear) if they make a difference.  They also make a damping product called the Eliminator, which is a metallic-finished brick-like device that sits on top of a piece of gear.