Time for a change??

I like hard rock too PB; "heavy mental" is a pretty good way of describing that other particular genre!!

Peter

Polarbear posted:

yeti42 posted:

I heard the Ktemas at a show a couple of years ago and they were the most enjoyable I heard all day, however, they only played jazz and some vocal music, intriguing though, can you still buy them?

Not something that may suit my love for hard rock and heavy mental then?  

That much is unknown, with a 552/500 giving them what for they might be up to it. It was a Guildford audio/absolute sounds show and it was the room that sounded like music. I went with some friends, one of whom managed to get some AC/DC played on the airforce 2 with d’agostinos and wilson and cleared the room apparently, I missed that alas.

Polarbear posted:

Blimey, it seems a while since I have posted here looking for an upgrade but ten years fly by 

 

So whats changed, I am sitting here listening to Steve Wilson's latest thinking, yeah, its good but maybe it could be better.  So where to start?  I am not looking to change the front end, the CD555, Roksan TMS and NAT 01 IMO can't be bettered, well not this side of £50K!  The 552/500 to me, still powers the system admirably. So maybe its time to look at changing the speakers. Those that know me, will know I went on a long search for speakers many years ago and I thought I was thinking my speakers would last a lifetime so why the itchy paws. Well I am sure things move on and I am starting to hear better  

Therefore advice gentlemen please, its not something I am going to rush into, us Polar bears have all the time in the world 

Went Passive.  Very recently switched out my NBLs active w/3 250.2s snaxo/ supercap, 552. Replaced  amps and crossover with a single NAP500, to a pair of Wilson series 1 speakers-.nothing short of  a massive upgrade ...IMHO btw, not sure if it's the 500 or the Wilson's probably the combo

All I’m saying is that the current JBL sound is not the same as the JBL sound from the ‘70s and ‘80s. JBL has come a long way with it’s horns. The problem for most folks, is that they hear compression drivers that are not fully run in. Typical qualities of horns that are not fully run in, range from lack of dynamics, to stridency in the upper midrange. This is where that nasal sound comes from that is associated with horns. Current JBL horns exhibit none of these traits. 

JBL has not been well represented in the UK, so the brand is unfamiliar to many folks. Open your mind, do some research, and you might be surprised. Or just keep running around with your Marmite and toast, and let the whole thing just pass you by.

Polarbear, best of luck with the search. You certainly helped me when I was looking, and ended up w ART diamonds.

what are you looking for in your next speaker?

Br Lars

I wonder what you are trying to achieve PB? At your level you get slam, Imaging, refinement and so on. Changing your very good current model for another will probably give you a different mix of the same strengths and weaknesses.

But if you are looking for fun and involvement I would get Peter round again to find a way to get DBLs work. It’s so personal this, but I  want my system to be entertaining rather than some abstract notion of authenticity to the recording. Others will no doubt say that my set up sounds like a bag of nails, but I do actually enjoy it massively at all times.

Priorities?

Stu

Hi there!

You know my system. It's in a completely different (much smaller) house now with Shahinian Diapasons. You're welcome to come for a listen. And of course you and Karen are welcome to stay for a weekend. 

Monster posted:

All I’m saying is that the current JBL sound is not the same as the JBL sound from the ‘70s and ‘80s. JBL has come a long way with it’s horns. The problem for most folks, is that they hear compression drivers that are not fully run in. Typical qualities of horns that are not fully run in, range from lack of dynamics, to stridency in the upper midrange. This is where that nasal sound comes from that is associated with horns. Current JBL horns exhibit none of these traits. 

JBL has not been well represented in the UK, so the brand is unfamiliar to many folks. Open your mind, do some research, and you might be surprised. Or just keep running around with your Marmite and toast, and let the whole thing just pass you by.

 

 

Certainly some JBLs of old have managed to capture something very special and elusive.  Many years back I remember chatting to a friend and colleague who had been in the industry for many years, had heard most things, and had both a love and respect for Naim and Linn, as well as many other fine brands - oh, and he owned a pair of the incredible big STAX electrostatics  too.  Anyway, I said to him once that i imagined with the STAX he'd never be shopping for speakers again.  He looked at me with a wry smile and said that there was one speaker he would love to have and that if I ever came across a pair for sale during my world travels that I should let him know.  That speaker was the JBL 4343.  Frankly, I was surprised.  This coming from one of the most respected people in the industry. JBL. Hmmm...

And one day I walked into a dealer in eastern Germany to be confronted by a pair - somewhat the worse for wear cosmetically, but I was assured tip-top operationally.  They had been removed from the old Deutsche Schallplatten factory and restored - although the exterior retained their original patina. I will never forget listening to those speakers on that day.  They had life, they got the hairs on my arms prickling, they communicated to me in a way that's very rare from any speaker. Yes, in absolute terms they were a little raw and possibly "coloured" but it just didn't seem to matter.  From that moment on, I chalked them up as something special and, if I could ever accommodate a pair (they're big, need space, and they're pretty ugly) then I'd seek them out.  Only question was, could I live with them all the time for playing everything.  I don't know, but I'd love to find out.

Anyway, somewhat of a diversion from PB's thread. But could a pair of 4343s be a possibility, I wonder??  There is a company in Japan (Kenrick Sound) that specialises in restoring them, and they ship all over the world. If it's a change you're after, it may just be the tonic you need.  Certainly something different and if they didn't work out, you shouldn't have much difficulty in finding someone to take them off your hands...

LarsDK posted:

Polarbear, best of luck with the search. You certainly helped me when I was looking, and ended up w ART diamonds.

what are you looking for in your next speaker?

Br Lars

Hi Lars,

I have always been happy to help people out 

I guess I am looking for more of that wow factor which draws me into the music and caresses you into listening to album after album. That's what's missing, the x factor that you cannot put into hi-fi terms, is the connection to the music. Its always a sign that when you are not listening to music on your system, somethings not right. TBH, I haven't really been listening and enjoying as much as I used to. Its far to easy at the moment to finish a CD or record and look for something on the TV or a film rather than rushing over to my music collection and wanting to put something else on.

I have heard a couple of systems recently where I could have sat and listened for endless hours, both Naim systems but the only difference being the speakers, one a very simple Naim Kudos 505 system which shouldn't have come anywhere near mine but it did and that's what got me looking again.

Kind regards

PB

Richard Dane posted:

Monster posted:

All I’m saying is that the current JBL sound is not the same as the JBL sound from the ‘70s and ‘80s. JBL has come a long way with it’s horns. The problem for most folks, is that they hear compression drivers that are not fully run in. Typical qualities of horns that are not fully run in, range from lack of dynamics, to stridency in the upper midrange. This is where that nasal sound comes from that is associated with horns. Current JBL horns exhibit none of these traits. 

JBL has not been well represented in the UK, so the brand is unfamiliar to many folks. Open your mind, do some research, and you might be surprised. Or just keep running around with your Marmite and toast, and let the whole thing just pass you by.

 

 

Certainly some JBLs of old have managed to capture something very special and elusive.  Many years back I remember chatting to a friend and colleague who had been in the industry for many years, had heard most things, and had both a love and respect for Naim and Linn, as well as many other fine brands - oh, and he owned a pair of the incredible big STAX electrostatics  too.  Anyway, I said to him once that i imagined with the STAX he'd never be shopping for speakers again.  He looked at me with a wry smile and said that there was one speaker he would love to have and that if I ever came across a pair for sale during my world travels that I should let him know.  That speaker was the JBL 4343.  Frankly, I was surprised.  This coming from one of the most respected people in the industry. JBL. Hmmm...

And one day I walked into a dealer in eastern Germany to be confronted by a pair - somewhat the worse for wear cosmetically, but I was assured tip-top operationally.  They had been removed from the old Deutsche Schallplatten factory and restored - although the exterior retained their original patina. I will never forget listening to those speakers on that day.  They had life, they got the hairs on my arms prickling, they communicated to me in a way that's very rare from any speaker. Yes, in absolute terms they were a little raw and possibly "coloured" but it just didn't seem to matter.  From that moment on, I chalked them up as something special and, if I could ever accommodate a pair (they're big, need space, and they're pretty ugly) then I'd seek them out.  Only question was, could I live with them all the time for playing everything.  I don't know, but I'd love to find out.

Anyway, somewhat of a diversion from PB's thread. But could a pair of 4343s be a possibility, I wonder??  There is a company in Japan (Kenrick Sound) that specialises in restoring them, and they ship all over the world. If it's a change you're after, it may just be the tonic you need.  Certainly something different and if they didn't work out, you shouldn't have much difficulty in finding someone to take them off your hands...

Richard, I always suspected you had a good taste regarding loudspeakers and that confirms it ! 

Polarbear posted:

 

I guess I am looking for more of that wow factor which draws me into the music and caresses you into listening to album after album. That's what's missing, the x factor that you cannot put into hi-fi terms, is the connection to the music. Its always a sign that when you are not listening to music on your system, somethings not right. TBH, I haven't really been listening and enjoying as much as I used to. Its far to easy at the moment to finish a CD or record and look for something on the TV or a film rather than rushing over to my music collection and wanting to put something else on.

Four scenarios come to mind, offered as food for thought, not conclusions in themselves:

1. Your speakers were never right, though they may have been the best you had heard it the time. Your various changes around with ART suggest a certain lack of contentment, so maybe this is indeed the case. In which case, here’s wishing you all the best at finding that elusive something... 
2. Your speakers have deteriorated. Not very likely in such a short time, though possible - ditto other components. Assiming Naim gear servicing is up to date, you could get speakers checked by ART.
3. You are the kind of person who is never satisfied for long, whether that manifests in needing to change something in the hifi (and other than speakers, everything else is at top of game bar Statement), or move house, or change partner etc. This is not meant insultingly - I do not lnow you, but I have seen that in many people. If that is the case, then just do it - you’ll be back doing it again in a few years...
4. Perhaps the limitation isn’t actually where you see it (or rather hear it). What about your room - from basics of size and shape, to treatment, etc? It is an oft-ignored limitation, and you seem to have done more than your fair share of speaker changing.

A final thought: you seem to have rejected the notion of PMC MB2 unless you could have the entire system you heard - might that be risking missing out on the part the MB2s themselves played?

Polarbear posted:

LarsDK posted:

Polarbear, best of luck with the search. You certainly helped me when I was looking, and ended up w ART diamonds.

what are you looking for in your next speaker?

Br Lars

Hi Lars,

 

I have always been happy to help people out 

 

I guess I am looking for more of that wow factor which draws me into the music and caresses you into listening to album after album. That's what's missing, the x factor that you cannot put into hi-fi terms, is the connection to the music. Its always a sign that when you are not listening to music on your system, somethings not right. TBH, I haven't really been listening and enjoying as much as I used to. Its far to easy at the moment to finish a CD or record and look for something on the TV or a film rather than rushing over to my music collection and wanting to put something else on.

 

I have heard a couple of systems recently where I could have sat and listened for endless hours, both Naim systems but the only difference being the speakers, one a very simple Naim Kudos 505 system which shouldn't have come anywhere near mine but it did and that's what got me looking again.

 

Kind regards

 

PB

Interesting. Perhaps what you are actually looking for is less of a wow factor. Lots of speakers I’ve heard have had a wow factor, as in  great bass, great highs, enough slam to knock your glasses off, great imaging or whatever, but in terms of musical engagement they have been crap. After listening to them I put my system on and think that X or Y is not as good as the wow speaker I heard, but after a couple of minutes I’m sucked into the music and all thoughts of slam, bass, imaging or whatever disappear. I can listen for hours on end with no fatigue at all. My humble suggestion is that you should perhaps consider the things you said you didn’t want to do - do the DR upgrades and get some SL wires, which work so well with the DR equipment. And then if  that doesn’t work, change speakers. 

With simple systems, like the Nova and 505s, you expect less and therefore are more easily satisfied. But when you are sitting in a room with £100k’s worth of equipment, you want perfection and it’s so easy to be disappointed. Somewhere between the two is a happy medium. 

Which is probably of no help whatsoever!

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns ????. Christoph

Richard Dane posted:

Monster posted:

All I’m saying is that the current JBL sound is not the same as the JBL sound from the ‘70s and ‘80s. JBL has come a long way with it’s horns. The problem for most folks, is that they hear compression drivers that are not fully run in. Typical qualities of horns that are not fully run in, range from lack of dynamics, to stridency in the upper midrange. This is where that nasal sound comes from that is associated with horns. Current JBL horns exhibit none of these traits. 

JBL has not been well represented in the UK, so the brand is unfamiliar to many folks. Open your mind, do some research, and you might be surprised. Or just keep running around with your Marmite and toast, and let the whole thing just pass you by.

 

 

Certainly some JBLs of old have managed to capture something very special and elusive.  Many years back I remember chatting to a friend and colleague who had been in the industry for many years, had heard most things, and had both a love and respect for Naim and Linn, as well as many other fine brands - oh, and he owned a pair of the incredible big STAX electrostatics  too.  Anyway, I said to him once that i imagined with the STAX he'd never be shopping for speakers again.  He looked at me with a wry smile and said that there was one speaker he would love to have and that if I ever came across a pair for sale during my world travels that I should let him know.  That speaker was the JBL 4343.  Frankly, I was surprised.  This coming from one of the most respected people in the industry. JBL. Hmmm...

And one day I walked into a dealer in eastern Germany to be confronted by a pair - somewhat the worse for wear cosmetically, but I was assured tip-top operationally.  They had been removed from the old Deutsche Schallplatten factory and restored - although the exterior retained their original patina. I will never forget listening to those speakers on that day.  They had life, they got the hairs on my arms prickling, they communicated to me in a way that's very rare from any speaker. Yes, in absolute terms they were a little raw and possibly "coloured" but it just didn't seem to matter.  From that moment on, I chalked them up as something special and, if I could ever accommodate a pair (they're big, need space, and they're pretty ugly) then I'd seek them out.  Only question was, could I live with them all the time for playing everything.  I don't know, but I'd love to find out.

Anyway, somewhat of a diversion from PB's thread. But could a pair of 4343s be a possibility, I wonder??  There is a company in Japan (Kenrick Sound) that specialises in restoring them, and they ship all over the world. If it's a change you're after, it may just be the tonic you need.  Certainly something different and if they didn't work out, you shouldn't have much difficulty in finding someone to take them off your hands...

That sums up the way I felt when I first auditioned JBLs. It was one of those occasions that a person can't forget. I ended up buying a set of 4429s which I am using on the end of LP12/52/250. Naim and JBL seem to be a great match. The JBL compression drivers are sublime, non fatiguing, extremely insightful, dynamic and warm. The midrange is so pure and natural, and the upper frequencies are smooth and extended without any hardness or harshness. You can lead a horse to water...

BB 

christoph posted:

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns ????. Christoph

Agreed, Christoph. I’d love to hear new music which lights a fire under like it used to; but I don’t. Dumbed-down mp3 type mastering of most new popular music doesn’t help.

Is everything derivitive of what’s gone before, and I have in my music collection, or is it me?

Fortunately, I still derive great pleasure from the music I have, but I don’t listen as much as I used to.

So, Nigel; it could just be an age thing and/or the answer begins with a ‘K’. Peter will sort you and Karen out - in the nicest possible way.

Best wishes.

John.

christoph posted:

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns ????. Christoph

That isn’t universal. Whilst for me the excitement factor when a new album is released, waiting for it and dashing home to put it on, has mellowed, though whether due to age or simply that there is nothing as exciting released now as 40-50 years ago I don’t know. But sitting at home yesterday playing a range of things that included the Beatles’ Abbey Road, Van der Graaf Generator’s Quiet Zone, Pleasure Dome, Tarja Turunen’s Act 1 and Grieg’s Peer Gynt (full version). they were all as exciting and involving as they ever have been, and I sat there thinking how lucky I am, while not doing half the things I had planned to get done.

It sounds like the OP has already made up his mind if you read between the lines, and is looking for that emotional support of the forum.

There is always going to be something better, no matter how much money you throw at the problem, if there really is a problem. The simple answer is just buy the most expensive model in the brand that you prefer at the moment (Kudos), and be done with it.

HH is giving some good advise, Gawd, I hate it when I agree with him, I know this advice will fall on deaf ears, but get yourself a simple, beautifully built speaker that can connect you with the music, doesn't have to be at any particular price point, just something that can make you happy in the moment, not what can impress the world!

Innocent Bystander posted:

Polarbear posted:

 

I guess I am looking for more of that wow factor which draws me into the music and caresses you into listening to album after album. That's what's missing, the x factor that you cannot put into hi-fi terms, is the connection to the music. Its always a sign that when you are not listening to music on your system, somethings not right. TBH, I haven't really been listening and enjoying as much as I used to. Its far to easy at the moment to finish a CD or record and look for something on the TV or a film rather than rushing over to my music collection and wanting to put something else on.

Four scenarios come to mind, offered as food for thought, not conclusions in themselves:

1. Your speakers were never right, though they may have been the best you had heard it the time. Your various changes around with ART suggest a certain lack of contentment, so maybe this is indeed the case. In which case, here’s wishing you all the best at finding that elusive something... 
2. Your speakers have deteriorated. Not very likely in such a short time, though possible - ditto other components. Assiming Naim gear servicing is up to date, you could get speakers checked by ART.
3. You are the kind of person who is never satisfied for long, whether that manifests in needing to change something in the hifi (and other than speakers, everything else is at top of game bar Statement), or move house, or change partner etc. This is not meant insultingly - I do not lnow you, but I have seen that in many people. If that is the case, then just do it - you’ll be back doing it again in a few years...
4. Perhaps the limitation isn’t actually where you see it (or rather hear it). What about your room - from basics of size and shape, to treatment, etc? It is an oft-ignored limitation, and you seem to have done more than your fair share of speaker changing.

A final thought: you seem to have rejected the notion of PMC MB2 unless you could have the entire system you heard - might that be risking missing out on the part the MB2s themselves played?

Blimey, I asked for advice regarding speakers, I didn't ask for therapy or the need to be psycho analysed  lol, however you are right, after living in the same place for near on 20 years, working at the same place for 35 years, owning most of my system for over 10 years now, I must stop these impulse purchases..

All of my kit is well maintained and in great order, it hasn't been that long since ART last refreshed my speakers so there is no concern there but things do move on, the ART's are over ten years old now and things move on. I have always maintained that the Naim kit is never going to change and I did state I wouldn't change the ARTs until I have heard real improvements and here we are, that time has come.  As the for room both Peter and I know the limitations and characteristics of my room, thats been constant in the last 20 years. I am not dismissing room treatment etc but my listening room remains Karen and my living room where we live. Its not going to become a hi-fi dealers room.

I guess the root of these comments is the reluctance on my behalf of including the PMC's in my shortlist of speakers I will demo at home, well I have nothing against them but not enough reason at the moment to ask a dealer to bring them here for a demonstration.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Polarbear posted:

LarsDK posted:

Polarbear, best of luck with the search. You certainly helped me when I was looking, and ended up w ART diamonds.

what are you looking for in your next speaker?

Br Lars

Hi Lars,

 

I have always been happy to help people out 

 

I guess I am looking for more of that wow factor which draws me into the music and caresses you into listening to album after album. That's what's missing, the x factor that you cannot put into hi-fi terms, is the connection to the music. Its always a sign that when you are not listening to music on your system, somethings not right. TBH, I haven't really been listening and enjoying as much as I used to. Its far to easy at the moment to finish a CD or record and look for something on the TV or a film rather than rushing over to my music collection and wanting to put something else on.

 

I have heard a couple of systems recently where I could have sat and listened for endless hours, both Naim systems but the only difference being the speakers, one a very simple Naim Kudos 505 system which shouldn't have come anywhere near mine but it did and that's what got me looking again.

 

Kind regards

 

PB

Interesting. Perhaps what you are actually looking for is less of a wow factor. Lots of speakers I’ve heard have had a wow factor, as in  great bass, great highs, enough slam to knock your glasses off, great imaging or whatever, but in terms of musical engagement they have been crap. After listening to them I put my system on and think that X or Y is not as good as the wow speaker I heard, but after a couple of minutes I’m sucked into the music and all thoughts of slam, bass, imaging or whatever disappear. I can listen for hours on end with no fatigue at all. My humble suggestion is that you should perhaps consider the things you said you didn’t want to do - do the DR upgrades and get some SL wires, which work so well with the DR equipment. And then if  that doesn’t work, change speakers. 

With simple systems, like the Nova and 505s, you expect less and therefore are more easily satisfied. But when you are sitting in a room with £100k’s worth of equipment, you want perfection and it’s so easy to be disappointed. Somewhere between the two is a happy medium. 

Which is probably of no help whatsoever!

No, that makes perfect sense Nigel, I have already stated above, I am not looking for more hi-fi, I don't need more treble and more sound staging and I certainly don't need more bass or slam.  Its the listenability I am after and thats quite rightly nothing to do with how much I have spent on the equipment, thats not important, whats important is my long term listening enjoyment 

christoph posted:

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns ????. Christoph

Speak for yourself Christopher, I am not getting old and certainly not ready for the pipes and slippers yet. I have no intention of going out and buying a soft valves and horns based system 

badlands posted:

It sounds like the OP has already made up his mind if you read between the lines, and is looking for that emotional support of the forum.

There is always going to be something better, no matter how much money you throw at the problem, if there really is a problem. The simple answer is just buy the most expensive model in the brand that you prefer at the moment (Kudos), and be done with it.

HH is giving some good advise, Gawd, I hate it when I agree with him, I know this advice will fall on deaf ears, but get yourself a simple, beautifully built speaker that can connect you with the music, doesn't have to be at any particular price point, just something that can make you happy in the moment, not what can impress the world!

No not yet but I do now what I like and have spent the last twenty years or so listening to loads of systems and meeting many great people through my love of music and hi-fi. I also agree with HH and your final paragraph, I have no intention of building a system that impresses the world, I simply want to make changes that will take me though the next ten year at least ( I hope )

You’ve used the B word so you can expect some deviation from the topic.

I remember an ART thread but since I joined the forum in 08 it probably wasn’t yours.

Polarbear posted:

christoph posted:

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns ????. Christoph

Speak for yourself Christopher, I am not getting old and certainly not ready for the pipes and slippers yet. I have no intention of going out and buying a soft valves and horns based system 

sorry, maybe it is my bad english, nothing with slippers and pipes ????the valve and horns based System i have in mind is fast and brutally clear. 

yeti42 posted:

You’ve used the B word so you can expect some deviation from the topic.

I remember an ART thread but since I joined the forum in 08 it probably wasn’t yours.

 

That could have been one of my threads, I started many 

2008 sounds around the time ART upgraded the mid range unit and the Deco's went to Mark 2 status 

christoph posted:

Polarbear posted:

christoph posted:

Polarbear, for me, loosing the wow factor has to do something with getting older. Music isn‘t the same as music with twenty, and sometimes i miss this intensity very hard. Maybe it is time for something totally different, a nait 2 with Spendor BC 1 or LS 3/5 and a good turntable or a tube based system with horns ????. Christoph

Speak for yourself Christopher, I am not getting old and certainly not ready for the pipes and slippers yet. I have no intention of going out and buying a soft valves and horns based system 

sorry, maybe it is my bad english, nothing with slippers and pipes ????the valve and horns based System i have in mind is fast and brutally clear. 

No, sorry it was me making a tongue in cheek comment about getting old, seriously though I am more than happy with the Prat that Naim gives and I like that upfront exciting sound.