Two free upgrades... but now the room's a dogs dinner. I wanted to share the upgrades - they're easy and reversibIe - but was also wondering if anyone had advice on whether it's possible to keep the upgrade in SQ without messing up the room.
So, the living room is 4.5m x 5.3m. For years I'd had the speakers firing 'across' the room i.e. with their backs to the 5.3m wall. Most of this wall (3.5m) comprises windows, and below this I think it's thick(ish) plywood which has been plastered. Listening position was about 3 -3.5m from the speakers. Speakers about 2.3m tweeter to tweeter.
UPGRADE 1
I moved the speakers so they're firing 'down' the room i.e with their backs to the 4.5m wall. This wall is structural (plastered brick cavity wall) so it's way more solid and massy than the other wall. The speakers are a bit closer together than they used to be (tweeter to tweeter is 2m). Result: most aspects of the sound improved, greater clarity, heft, etc etc. Happy days...
UPGRADE 2
With the speakers in the new position I initially was listening with my bonce is about 4m from the speakers. Conscious of the golden triangle (or whatever it's called) I thought I should try moving the sofa closer to the speakers. Now 3m from the speakers - result: again most aspects of the sound improve - greater clarity and the sound feels more precise. Very happy days....
...BUT
The room is now a mess. There's a big & fairly useless space behind the main sofa, and I really need to take a chainsaw to the other sofa to try and fashion it into a corner unit or something more practical. So far the changes have been free and easily reversible. I'd love to find a way of keeping the improved SQ while reverting to the old room layout.
QUESTION
My gut feel is the the main reason for the improvement in sound in Upgrade 1 was due to the solidity and / or mass of the wall behind the speakers. It would be quite a commitment, but I could potentially re-model the long wall and replace the plywood with single thickness brickwork up to the bottom of the windows (approx 80cm floor to window). If this were to work, then I would move back to the original layout, move the listening position closer to the speakers, and enjoy a more practical room layout and better sound quality. But I really don't know what's behind the improvements. Could it be reflections off ceiling / side walls, could it be the space between listening position and the back wall? I really don't know.
I'd urge anyone who hasn't tried it to experiment with room layout - the improvements have been really significant for me. I'd love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on the reasons behind the improvements I'm hearing, and any advice on maintaining the improvements in SQ while reverting to the original room layout.
Cheers, Mark
Speakers are Linn Keilidh - i.e sealed box. They're fed by NDX - SN1 & HiCap.
Posted on: 10 March 2018 by Innocent Bystander
As you’ve found, the room layout - speaker and listening positions, and their relationships with everything else, can have a massive effect on the sound. i seem to recall a ‘rule of thumb’ that the best listening position may be just under 40% of the distance from the front wall to the rear wall, and second best may be just under 40% of distance from the rear wall to the front wall. Your position must be approaching the latter. Certainly it is best for the listening position to be well away from the rear wall, and that can be more significant than getting the speakers away from the wall, itself not always as necessary as sometimes suggested. But so much depends on the characteristics of the room, in particular how reflective or absorbant the surfaces - almost invariably that is markedly different across the sound spectrum.
A reason for often hearing advice to fire across the room is because if the side walls are reflective (smooth and hard), then early reflections can be significant, muddying the sound. But firing down the room can better enable the listening position be sufficiently far from the rear wall, as you have found. All a compromise! As for the wall construction, some degree of flexibility may improve bass absorbance, helping tame bass resonances -but the position where that will be most effective will depend on the dimensions and layout of the room.
In all, the room is so often neglected, and whilst treatment can be costly, maybe not so in proportion to good electronics and speakers - and it really is worth recognising that tne room is as much a part of the system as anything else, and can have a more profound effect than many poeple recognise. think that before maximising expenditure on high end kit, room treatment should be considered as an essential consideration, but that said, the reality is that the practicalities and aesthetics of what may be needed can put people off, especially where a significant other party may have a say in the appearance of the room.
Returning to the final question, I suggest getting a copy of REW (“room equalisation wizard” which is a freeware computer program that combined with a suitable measuring microphone (fairly inexpensive) can enable to to see what is happening in the room, and in different listening locations: and some room treatment suppliers - GIK is one - can take the data from such measurements and suggest the treatment that would be most effective.
Posted on: 10 March 2018 by Japtimscarlet
I know my room layout is far from ideal
Speakers too far apart ...too near side walls..etc etc
But SWMBO has to have the last say in how the room looks...and there it is
Posted on: 10 March 2018 by Innocent Bystander
The SWMBO (or even HWMBO?) angle is an interesting challenge where it overides the desires of the audiophile member of the family. Where that may have a significant adverse effect on the sound quality that can be achieved it does make me wonder about the spending of huge sums of money on equipment. Would it be better to spend more on a home (Buying or modifying) to enable a dedicated listening room for the audiophile, with freedom to treat and lay out solely for best audio - even if that means less cash available for the equipment: at least then the equipment can be free to perform at its best, and that often overlooked key part of the system, the room, not countering all the benefits of the rest of the system. Of course, this is only a realistic possibility where significant expenditure is involved, and where the required living locale allows. Cheaper, of course, is to pick a significant other with an interest in audio satisfaction more than visual - maybe something to instil in one’s offspring...
Posted on: 11 March 2018 by Innocent Bystander
Cheaper, of course, is to pick a significant other with an interest in audio satisfaction more than visual - maybe something to instil in one’s offspring...
IDK - my wife is far more interested in visual than audio which works perfectly for us. She goes in the other room and watches TV each night while I listen to music. Opposites attract and it's good for a couple not to share a common interest in every thing.
Actually the same here - although my wife likes music and actually has a keen ear, her taste in music excludes much of mine, and any anyway music is not important to her and she would rather sit and watch TV or read a book in silence. So we we ensure we have two living spaces, and the layout and appearance of the listening room largely does not concern her, though it doubles as a home cinema so there are some limitations. It works well, though it does mean I will quite often go and sit with her watching something rather than otherwise having dinner as the only time we see each other on work days. A key thing, however, is that she knew and accepted from the start about my love of music and the importance of having a decent music replay system which dictated big speakers and some fixed requirements for the room (precluding random room rearrangements!), and that it is a part of my DNA, so to speak.
Posted on: 11 March 2018 by wenger2015
Some great comments on this thread.
I recently dealt with GIK, they provided some excellent suggestions.
Fortunately I have my own dedicated listening room, so implementing various panels is not a problem.
Does it all make a difference.. without question it does....
