DAC

nocker posted:

Can someone advise on DAC's please.  

 

I have a HDX & NDX running into a Supernait2.  Which has the better DAC inside it & would the NDAC be an upgrade to either?

Thanks in advance.

The NDX, but you could test this out for yourself and see what you think. The Naim DAC should  be an upgrade on either though.

Naim DAC is an upgrade for HDX and NDX. 

Without a doubt, I have the HDX and nDAC and I’ve compared the different upgrades the nDAC does. Going down from the HDX+nDAC+555PS through HDX+nDAC through HDX+555PS to HDX, the sound gets more compressed.

The nDAC separates out the sound instruments and makes them more realistic. At a later time perhaps get a second hand XPS or 555PS and that stage of sound expands again.

The nDAC is the Naim upgrade for all existing and past digital Naim sources except for the NDS.

Let’s hear what the New Network Players announced over a month ago will bring. ????

Chag -

nDAC is the logical upgrade to both. And I can confirm it upgrades the NDX  very well.

Of course there are alternatives from other manufacturers.

have an open mind ,the dac market since the ndac has moved on. .I had one of the first and its long gone   .the .  my next dac is the new auralic or the ps audio .    dealer says the new chord is the leader at £1200

The naim DAC second hand seems to keep its value well, I bought and sold at no cost a few years ago but prices do seem to be holding up. 

There should be quite a few Hugo 1 on the s/ h market also which should be a cost neutral buy to try. 

I don’t thing the nDAC new is a good proposition at all. 

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:

The naim DAC second hand seems to keep its value well, I bought and sold at no cost a few years ago but prices do seem to be holding up. 

There should be quite a few Hugo 1 on the s/ h market also which should be a cost neutral buy to try. 

I don’t thing the nDAC new is a good proposition at all. 

.sjb

There’s a lot on the forum about Hugo, and it seems that  the majority who have tried it have preferred it to nDAC, though certainly not all. The recently released Hugo2 is said to be a significant upgrade on the original Hugo (I haven’t heard myself), with the very new Qutest a variant of it. These in same ballpark as nDAC cost-wise, I believe. Of course there are higher level DACs, but at higher cost...

An unknown question is whether Naim will release a replacement for nDAC on the back of their recently announced (but not yet available) new streamers - and how that, if it happens, would compare with the Chord DACs is anyone’s guess.

audio1946 posted:

have an open mind ,the dac market since the ndac has moved on. .I had one of the first and its long gone   .the .  my next dac is the new auralic or the ps audio .    dealer says the new chord is the leader at £1200

Perhaps its the Qutest they have in mind ?

Hugo was a dealbreaker for me due to battery (and HP amp), will look closer at the Qutest, but will it have the involving character as a nDac ? 

Perol posted:

Hugo was a dealbreaker for me due to battery (and HP amp), will look closer at the Qutest, but will it have the involving character as a nDac ? 

Only you can answer that question! As I indicated, it seems that the  majority of people on the forum who did compare seemed to feel Hugo(1) was more involving than Naim’s DACs.

Not sure why headphone amp was an issue with Hugo? The level could be set as desired to match preamp (or even feed power amp direct), or a fixed line-level output chosen. Quite a few people reported finding that Hugo sounded better than Qute, despite the potential benefit of the latter’s galvanic isolation, and the only other differences were the output stage and batteries.

While I am in no doubt the nDAC would better the NDX, HDX, and DAC-V1 (which I own), all of which I believe share the same DAC chip (TI PCM1791A), and presumably a number of other components and design principles, it has a pretty big task on its hands to compete on VFM and performance against the latest Chord DACs, in particular the Qutest if a line out DAC is all you need. 

I had an extended demo of the Qutest a little while ago, after what should have been a weekend demo lasted over a week, thanks to global warming and the 7 inches of snow that dropped on Norfolk.  Unable to get to work, unable to return the DAC (hmm, both debatable), what a shame, but as a result I got to know it pretty well.  

I waffled on about it on the forum a few weeks ago in hifi-speak terms, but after that I became even more familiar with the little brick.  Due to demand vs supply issues, I don't have my own yet, and am back to listening to the DAC-V1, which is still great and enjoyable, but I must admit, I do miss the Chord.  it is enough of a leap in musical enjoyment, that I cannot imagine what the nDAC could do to justify over twice the price.  And with no USB input, grrr!

SongStream posted:

While I am in no doubt the nDAC would better the NDX, HDX, and DAC-V1 (which I own), all of which I believe share the same DAC chip (TI PCM1791A), and presumably a number of other components and design principles, it has a pretty big task on its hands to compete on VFM and performance against the latest Chord DACs, in particular the Qutest if a line out DAC is all you need. 

Naim DAC uses BB PCM1704K. NDX has BB PCM1791A but I don't know what HDX and DAC-V1 use. 

The technology  any particular DACs use is really rather irrelevant - what matters is how the complete device sounds, which involves far more than the particilar chips inside.

Innocent Bystander posted:

The technology  any particular DACs use is really rather irrelevant - what matters is how the complete device sounds, which involves far more than the particilar chips inside.

Very true.  The aforementioned 1791A, and its successor, is used in all kinds of devices.  Let's face it, the DAC chip itself costs about £20, but not many implementations, if any, sound as good as Naim.

One of the fundamental differences with nDAC is that it can be upgraded with an external power supply.
And the upgrade makes a huge difference.

Adam Zielinski posted:

One of the fundamental differences with nDAC is that it can be upgraded with an external power supply.
And the upgrade makes a huge difference.

The fundamental question there, however, is how does the upgraded version nDAC compare with other DACs, whether of similar or less total cost?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

One of the fundamental differences with nDAC is that it can be upgraded with an external power supply.
And the upgrade makes a huge difference.

The fundamental question there, however, is how does the upgraded version nDAC compare with other DACs, whether of similar or less total cost?

Actually it’s not.

The OP asked the main question - would nDAC upgrade his HDX and NDX.

The nDAC, NDS, CDX2 and better CDPs from Naim use the 1704K DAC chip which I understand Naim have secured in sufficient numbers for the future and to repair existing boxes. Such is their understanding and love of that chip that it is to be kept alive in the ND555!

The NDX and others use a different DAC from Burr Browne (?) I believe. There are Naim White Papers for those who want the inside story.

With a PS555DR at nearly 2-3 times the price of the nDAC you get something very special. However as I have never heard a Chord DAC in my system I am not I a position to pass judgement. I just know that I am amazed by nDAC + 555.

So yes IMO the OP would get a significant upgrade if he connected his HDX or NDX via nDAC + PS. Can’t say what would be best VFM for his system.

Phil

NDX white paper info on DAC ............  DAC chip in the NDX is a Burr-Brown PCM1791A used in external oversampling mode. This is the same Delta-Sigma DAC used in other high quality Naim products but in the NDX we switch off the internal oversampling and digital filter.  The oversampling and digital filtering is instead done externally by the Naim-written code in the DSP.

I don't think it wise to compare DAC only by type number,  application counts for a lot.  

When the NDX launched, we looked at it very hard as a possible upgrade for our HDX. We could not tell them apart. Bringing in the DAC was a whole different story. Big upgrade.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

One of the fundamental differences with nDAC is that it can be upgraded with an external power supply.
And the upgrade makes a huge difference.

The fundamental question there, however, is how does the upgraded version nDAC compare with other DACs, whether of similar or less total cost?

Actually it’s not.

The OP asked the main question - would nDAC upgrade his HDX and NDX.

You’re right, Adam. Apologies to you and the OP: I had missed the fact that  the posts on other DACs had not immediately preceded yours. Ishould have said “A question that may be fundamental when considering DACs that can be upgraded by adding (or changing) an external power supply is how the upgraded DAC performs compares with other DACs of similar or less total cost.”

Innocent Bystander posted:

The technology  any particular DACs use is really rather irrelevant - what matters is how the complete device sounds, which involves far more than the particilar chips inside.

I completely agree, IB. My nDAC could have a McCain oven-ready chip in it for all I care.  It sounds fabulous and that's all that matters to me. 

MDS posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

The technology  any particular DACs use is really rather irrelevant - what matters is how the complete device sounds, which involves far more than the particilar chips inside.

I completely agree, IB. My nDAC could have a McCain oven-ready chip in it for all I care.  It sounds fabulous and that's all that matters to me. 

Precisely! The field programmable gate array in my Dave could be fixed city doors - or even a French Fry (instead of a chip) for all I care!

Innocent Bystander posted:

MDS posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

The technology  any particular DACs use is really rather irrelevant - what matters is how the complete device sounds, which involves far more than the particilar chips inside.

I completely agree, IB. My nDAC could have a McCain oven-ready chip in it for all I care.  It sounds fabulous and that's all that matters to me. 

Precisely! The field programmable gate array in my Dave could be fixed city doors - or even a French Fry (instead of a chip) for all I care!

The nDAC with an external power supply is very hard to beat, mine is 6 years old and has bettered other DACs I've tried, including Chord's most recent offering. There isn't much else you can plug 8 digital sources into. The USBs are very good for iIthings but something like a Schiit Eitr USB to SPDIF or better will keep nasties from a computer out if you need computer input. But I only have an ND5 XS intesting it has the same chip ND5+nDAC+powersupply sounds so much better than ND5+external power supply and saves alot of cable swapping.  Wish I could run to a HDX & NDX