DAC

Sloop John B posted:

Alba1320 posted:

Remember, Adam, that according to some, anyone who has the 'temerity' to like a Naim  product is, by definition, a brainwashed/brain-dead/deaf, 'Naim sheep'... apparently.

It appears to me that some here like any product that has a Naim logo on it, and treat considering alternatives like an irrational impulse as “nothing is ever better than the Naim equivalent”. 

Perhaps Dynfan phrased things a bit too trenchantly but I certainly understand where he’s coming from. 

As I said earlier in this thread I consider a new nDAC a very poor proposition in 2018. Of course it still sounds as good as it did 10 years ago, so does the NDX but no one would be recommending to buy one new today (but were 2 months ago). 

.sjb

SJB  - relative to the cost of many 'black-boxes' today's cost of £2750 for the nDAC doesn't seem high to me.  Does the additional 'steaming' capability of the NDX, NDS justify their price differential over the nDAC? Of course the performance for £2750 compared to what that might buy with other makes is a perfectly reasonable question.  

And sorry to be a bit of a pendant but the firmware update released for the nDAC a few years ago improved the nDAC performance compared to when it was first released.  

analogmusic posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

analogmusic posted:

out of all the D/A conversion solutions out there I have to say Chord Mojo is the one I love the most and use the most as it just goes everywhere with me.

It's priced to be accessible at 400 GBP and sounds great

NDAC just can't do the things Mojo can do.

Now if Naim would kindly release something like the Mojo?

 

Wow, you prefer Mojo to Dave? I haven’t heard Mojo, but I’m astounded!

I much prefer Dave, but then look at the costs. 400 GBP for Mojo, and it goes everywhere, 8000 GBP for Dave.

My point is that Mojo is for everyone. good Music replay should be accessible to everyone.

Because Mojo is so small and portable, I tend to use it a lot more than Dave.

Can't complain though, Chord have made Dave small enough (compared to say a full stack of DCS) - or even the NDS/555 which is a very heavy piece of equipment !

Ah, OK -as long as people understand that.

Not being mobile enough to crave a portable solution, or crtainly not enough to spend a lot on it, It currently holds no interest for me. But is Idid travel more, I would certainly consider it. As I would if Poly could be used also wiypth Dave at home and a full size SD to hold my entire collection, making pick up and go so simple, with same library and controls etc wherever...

I did own one, I found it neeed an XPS make it viable as an alternative source for me. I didn’t hear the big improvement that others did with the firmware. I liked it, it sounded very good, I improved my streaming source with a less expensive alternative so this is what I base my opinion about the proposition in 2018. 

I’m trying to counter the opinion of some that just because it is Naim’s current DAC that this means it is top of its class if Naim haven’t upgraded it. An nDAC with PS is a hefty investment and to me definitely poor value currently. (s/h is a different proposition again referred to in my earlier post.). 

.sjb

Improvement with the new firmware was so obvious that I have to wonder how you missed it. It really lifted up the performance. I didn't expect much but was very surprised by how much more Naim was able to dig out from the SHARC DSP. Another big step up for me was adding the PSU to the DAC around a year ago. This way I've happily lived with the Naim DAC since 2011.

Out of curiosity though, I think I might have to give Qutest a spin. First Chord product which I could see myself buying. It's not fugly as most of their stuff (IMHO) and only has what's necessary for home use. What bothers me most with it is the lack of remote control option. I need to change the inputs between USB/PC and TV all the time. I don't understand how anyone designs equipment for home use without remote control option this day. 

Sjb , can you give us your view on your dac by comparison, not many will have heard of holoaufio, let alone had the pleasure of listening as there appears to be no dealers?

Patu posted:

Improvement with the new firmware was so obvious that I have to wonder how you missed it. It really lifted up the performance. I didn't expect much but was very surprised by how much more Naim was able to dig out from the SHARC DSP. Another big step up for me was adding the PSU to the DAC around a year ago. This way I've happily lived with the Naim DAC since 2011.

 

I felt so too. At the time I sought re-assurance from my dealer, who did the firmware update for me, that it was reversible as I was sceptical about it improving what I was already enjoying from the nDAC. I needn't have worried. The performance improvement was immediately obvious, made all the the sweeter that it was cost-free.    

It was a Hugo TT that improved upon my nDAC/XPS2. 

The Holo I got as I wanted to see what all the fuss about DSD512 was about. You can set the Holo to NOS and let Roon or HQPLAYER do the upsampling and conversion. 

I don’t have the vocabulary (or perhaps the ears) to accurately describe differences and I cannot be sure how much is due to DSD upsampling or the Holo but the sound stage is much wider and voices particularly intertwined harmonies are spectacularly separated. DSD seems to give an organic nature to the sound, the type of quality that some people articulated that they missed when they went from CDS3 to CD555. 

I went back to the Hugo TT for a week and decided I preferred the Holo with DSD although not universally in some albums the Hugo sounded better.

It doesn’t seem to be a genre or type of music that there are differences so I have come to the conclusion that the equipment used in recording and mastering partners well with some DACs and not so well with others. Sometimes I will change the filters in HQPLAYER for certain albums but therein lies madness I fear. 

It’s interesting that the new Chord DACs seem to give choice of filters and their new “upscaler” would seem to upsample. 

All I can be sure of is I currently have the best sounding source I have ever had and things are moving fast in the DAC arena and hopefully my END DAC will be made soon, one that accepts DSD512 and has an Ethernet input and is a Roon endpoint. 

.sjb

Thanks SJB....me too on ethernet connections.

Patu posted:

Improvement with the new firmware was so obvious that I have to wonder how you missed it. It really lifted up the performance. I didn't expect much but was very surprised by how much more Naim was able to dig out from the SHARC DSP. Another big step up for me was adding the PSU to the DAC around a year ago. This way I've happily lived with the Naim DAC since 2011.

Out of curiosity though, I think I might have to give Qutest a spin. First Chord product which I could see myself buying. It's not fugly as most of their stuff (IMHO) and only has what's necessary for home use. What bothers me most with it is the lack of remote control option. I need to change the inputs between USB/PC and TV all the time. I don't understand how anyone designs equipment for home use without remote control option this day. 

This is exactly how I feel about the V1. I would also add the earthing arrangements and reactionary product updates by Chord, for me, does not outweigh any perceived gains in SQ because of resolution - VHM and SQ is as always a person al choice and decision.   Nevertheless, I would like to see Naim shift the needle for a stand-alone DAC.

Try saying something negative about a Mac-mini, i-phone, or i-pad, to anyone that owns one; then you'll hear what blind (and probably deaf) brand loyalty sounds like.  [runs for cover] 

We try to get our ears around a bit when looking for the next box(es). But we don't have infinite time and petrol to listen to everything that is potentially available. Lucky you if you do. 

And there are not a huge number of dealers available to bring all the potential candidates to our home for an extended audition. So yes, I will admit to defaulting to a certain dealer under most circumstances.  And because of their excellent customer service, pre, at and after sales, Naim often get pole position in the audition list. Naim (and a small number of other favoured brands) gets this preferential treatment from us because they have earned it. But it doesn't guarantee anything. Naim will retain this favourable status right up until the second that we switch to someone else. 

Since our first Naim box (CD5) in 2001, we've probably sent back twice as many Naim boxes as we have ended up buying, and probably about double that in rejected alternatives. 

Past that, haters will hate and people who tend towards brand loyalty (this week/month/year/decade) and who are fortunate to be able to indulge, will be soft and obvious targets for the haters.  Smells a bit fishy to me.

SongStream posted:

Try saying something negative about a Mac-mini, i-phone, or i-pad, to anyone that owns one; then you'll hear what blind (and probably deaf) brand loyalty sounds like.  [runs for cover] 

 

I hate the Mac Universe. I hate their intrusive proprietorial and sometimes abusive attitude to their customers.  We own and use five iDevices on  a daily basis.  I don't let it get to me. And I don't hate Mac likers. That would be just silly.

I’m hardly a Naim basher, who annoy me just a much as Naim sycophants, sometimes I wonder is  it a cause and effect situation. 

I'm simply trying to give the OP advice from my experience and also trying to explain why perhaps some people get frustrated at some responses here. 

If “currently I do not think the nDAC is a good proposition bought new” is considered Naim bashing things have really reached a sorry state. 

What’s that Jim Diamond song?

.sjb

Harry posted:

SongStream posted:

Try saying something negative about a Mac-mini, i-phone, or i-pad, to anyone that owns one; then you'll hear what blind (and probably deaf) brand loyalty sounds like.  [runs for cover] 

 

I hate the Mac Universe. I hate their intrusive proprietorial and sometimes abusive attitude to their customers.  We own and use five iDevices on  a daily basis.  I don't let it get to me. And I don't hate Mac likers. That would be just silly.

Personally, I don't care about anything other than how the product works for me.  I have huge admiration for Apple as a business, and Steve Jobs as a business leader.  However, sometimes the Apple products can be really annoying, and have shortcomings just like everything else.  It's a case of compromise and going with what you prefer.  My phone is an iphone7, I use and i-pad occasionally, and in certain circumstances they're great, but the old fashioned keyboard, mouse, and (in my case) 32" monitor betters them in so many ways.  ....Now about these DACs.....

Sloop John B posted:

 

I’m hardly a Naim basher, who annoy me just a much as Naim sycophants, sometimes I wonder is  it a cause and effect situation. 

I'm simply trying to give the OP advice from my experience and also trying to explain why perhaps some people get frustrated at some responses here. 

If “currently I do not think the nDAC is a good proposition bought new” is considered Naim bashing things have really reached a sorry state. 

What’s that Jim Diamond song?

.sjb

Aye, aye yeayaye shoulda’ known bedder...

That one?

G

Patu posted:

Improvement with the new firmware was so obvious that I have to wonder how you missed it. It really lifted up the performance. I didn't expect much but was very surprised by how much more Naim was able to dig out from the SHARC DSP.

In what way did the sound change/improve. I owned an ndac before the the firmware upgrade was available, but got rid of it as I (and others) prefered the CDS2.

fatcat posted:

Patu posted:

Improvement with the new firmware was so obvious that I have to wonder how you missed it. It really lifted up the performance. I didn't expect much but was very surprised by how much more Naim was able to dig out from the SHARC DSP.

In what way did the sound change/improve. I owned an ndac before the the firmware upgrade was available, but got rid of it as I (and others) prefered the CDS2.

More space and air between the instruments, which also adds to better separation and clarity. Old firmware sounded flatter. Overall the new firmware pushed the sound signature to the same direction where DR technology took Naim amplifiers. 

the dac voicing ability is similar to the cartridge debate and the tweaking of the cartridge of yester year.  the market under a £1000 there are excellent dacs listen purchase then forget about it

fatcat posted:

Patu posted:

Improvement with the new firmware was so obvious that I have to wonder how you missed it. It really lifted up the performance. I didn't expect much but was very surprised by how much more Naim was able to dig out from the SHARC DSP.

In what way did the sound change/improve. I owned an ndac before the the firmware upgrade was available, but got rid of it as I (and others) prefered the CDS2.

Naim optimised the code sequencing further so as to reduce the processing noise artefacts and change the noise profile... it made the NDAC sound cleaner with less digital noise... I didn’t neccessarily prefer it I think I preferred overall the previous organic type sound... horses for courses, but as I have now sold my NDAC, I guess it’s the opinion of current owners that is of more value.

I wonder how many nDAC has been sold in last 3 years, 5? 

No idea but certainly can't be a mega seller

Perhaps a new in pipeline ?

Most likely to me .

Naim have discontinued the NDS which in turn shares the nDAC 40bit SHARC processor.

Really looking forward to knowing what innovations the uncompromised ND555 will bring to the party as those could be possibly implemented in a new dac. Was makes me think so is that digital replay is still pretty much with us especially for those having bought the CORE ,the new reference HD server.

 

I wonder how many nDAC has been sold in last 3 years, 5?  

All S/H.. ????

Chag -

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yes however the ADSP 21489 is the 4th generation DSP processor as used in the NDX, NDS, DAC, V1-DAC and Nova - and is a pretty powerful device with hardware filter accelerators and 450 MHz core clock speed as well as supporting differing reconstruction filter options such IIR and FIR under software control. The older slightly less performant and slower ADSP 21369 as used in the 272 is code compatible with it more powerful stablemate.

Id be surprised but very curious if  Naim decide to drop the ADSP 21489 from the ND555

Got to love your posts Simon, always full of first class information. Thumbs up! 

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova.