DAC

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova. 

Maybe it would’ve sounded too good with the better DSP.

Thanks Patu/Simon for the ndac firmware upgrade info. On the one hand more open/detailed sound and less digital noise seems an improvement, but less organic doesn’t.

I think I might give it another try, it’s not that is sounded awful, just not as good as the CDS2. In my system.

fatcat posted:

Thanks Patu/Simon for the ndac firmware upgrade info. On the one hand more open/detailed sound and less digital noise seems an improvement, but less organic doesn’t.

I think I might give it another try, it’s not that is sounded awful, just not as good as the CDS2. In my system.

No problem, there’s plenty more impressions in the nDAC firmware thread. 

Patu posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova. 

Maybe it would’ve sounded too good with the better DSP.

That did cross my mind. I sometimes wonder if some products are held back (‘crocked’ is perhaps too strong a term) to ensure that they fit the hierarchy. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Patu posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova. 

Maybe it would’ve sounded too good with the better DSP.

That did cross my mind. I sometimes wonder if some products are held back (‘crocked’ is perhaps too strong a term) to ensure that they fit the hierarchy. 

This was my first thought exactly. And I’m pretty sure this happens widely in the industry. 

Naim are masters at this kind of hierarchical marketing. Although not unique.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yes however the ADSP 21489 is the 4th generation DSP processor as used in the NDX, NDS, DAC, V1-DAC and Nova - and is a pretty powerful device with hardware filter accelerators and 450 MHz core clock speed as well as supporting differing reconstruction filter options such IIR and FIR under software control. The older slightly less performant and slower ADSP 21369 as used in the 272 is code compatible with it more powerful stablemate.

Id be surprised but very curious if  Naim decide to drop the ADSP 21489 from the ND555

May be then that the new code in the upcoming streamers can be made available to these products at some point after the launch (although this is a big assumption that Naim will continue to support products that are superseded or discontinued). Some hope for the NDAC and V1 

This could only work if:

- the crocked product is still the best, or at least competitive at its price point or

- enough customers buy without listening first (Naim sheep?) or

- everyone is doing this.

Too conspiracy-y for me, but enjoy yourselves.

On the other hand, what do I know? I am apparently one of the five persons deaf and blind enough to buy an obsolete DAC .

Jude2012 posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yes however the ADSP 21489 is the 4th generation DSP processor as used in the NDX, NDS, DAC, V1-DAC and Nova - and is a pretty powerful device with hardware filter accelerators and 450 MHz core clock speed as well as supporting differing reconstruction filter options such IIR and FIR under software control. The older slightly less performant and slower ADSP 21369 as used in the 272 is code compatible with it more powerful stablemate.

Id be surprised but very curious if  Naim decide to drop the ADSP 21489 from the ND555

May be then that the new code in the upcoming streamers can be made available to these products at some point after the launch (although this is a big assumption that Naim will continue to support products that are superseded or discontinued). Some hope for the NDAC and V1 

Possibly, but I very much doubt the code will change... after all it’s only a few lines long, ...... the clever stuff happens in the Analog Devices processor design itself and it’s integration with the DAC chips and the precision and stability of  it’s clock. The ‘craft’ design is the code execution timing to minimise and ‘tune’ the electrical noise which is dependent on the host architecture and so varies and is optimised for each product... and when we see the term the DSP is optimised this is what is usually referred to..

Mulberry posted:

 

On the other hand, what do I know? I am apparently one of the five persons deaf and blind enough to buy an obsolete DAC .

It's OK. You're in good (and happy) company.

As to your first "only if" point, you nailed it. Best in class, or best at a particular price point is what Naim are very good at. They've had a lot of practice over many years. Look at the transformations possible of the DAC by adding PSs, and how none of the intermediate configurations will leave a customer feeling hard done by at their chosen price point. The same DAC is essentially used in the NDS, yet it is better still in the ears of many, because it has been engineered to be. 

Naim pay intricate and obsessive attention to everything that goes into a box with the Naim name on. Right down to wire direction. It is difficult to gauge how anal they are unless you get an insight into how they build stuff, like on a factory tour. It is no surprise that they can design, engineer and build to an excellent level at a particular price point. It doesn't always work IMO. Nobody's perfect - all the time.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Jude2012 posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Yes however the ADSP 21489 is the 4th generation DSP processor as used in the NDX, NDS, DAC, V1-DAC and Nova - and is a pretty powerful device with hardware filter accelerators and 450 MHz core clock speed as well as supporting differing reconstruction filter options such IIR and FIR under software control. The older slightly less performant and slower ADSP 21369 as used in the 272 is code compatible with it more powerful stablemate.

Id be surprised but very curious if  Naim decide to drop the ADSP 21489 from the ND555

May be then that the new code in the upcoming streamers can be made available to these products at some point after the launch (although this is a big assumption that Naim will continue to support products that are superseded or discontinued). Some hope for the NDAC and V1 

Possibly, but I very much doubt the code will change... after all it’s only a few lines long, ...... the clever stuff happens in the Analog Devices processor design itself and it’s integration with the DAC chips and the precision and stability of  it’s clock. The ‘craft’ design is the code execution timing to minimise and ‘tune’ the electrical noise which is dependent on the host architecture and so varies and is optimised for each product... and when we see the term the DSP is optimised this is what is usually referred to..

Thanks for explaining Simon.  I hope then the learning from the new streamer’s DSP optimisation does trickle back, as the 21489 has the capacity.

Patu posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Patu posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova. 

Maybe it would’ve sounded too good with the better DSP.

That did cross my mind. I sometimes wonder if some products are held back (‘crocked’ is perhaps too strong a term) to ensure that they fit the hierarchy. 

This was my first thought exactly. And I’m pretty sure this happens widely in the industry. 

I am a great believer in this kind of issue and believe that I have experienced it first hand.  My thoughts are that manufacturers start off with a planned hierarchy, but over the years as they start to replace certain items, then the new items do not always sit neatly in the system.  A few good reviews and a midrange component suddenly gets labelled as a giant killer and they struggle to shift the top end gear.  This is less of an issue for big companies such as Naim, who have the resources to continue to evolve their units, but could become a nightmare for the small players.

DynFan160 posted:

The nDac is only special to only the most blind (deaf) die-hard NAIM fans. I've auditioned it and of course found it needed an external PS to sound its best but the reality is that its technology is about a decade old and there are other brands that offer orders of magnitude better detail retrieval. 

Compare with a Schiit Yiggy/Yggdrasil (with the Analog2 board fed by EITR). If you have to stick with a British brand, try Chord Dave or Metrum Acoustics Pavane and/or Onyx.

 

That's a pretty harsh comment. If one spends some time listening to DACs/digital sources from Naim, Chord and Linn one can easily hear the house sound of each company.

Naim digital sources have their own way of playing music, the Naim logo doesn't go on a product unless it can do certain things.

Detail retrieval is but one of the criteria that should be used to judge these products. It's the way they play music that makes all the difference, the only true reference out is real live music, everything else is a compromise as it always is in hi-fi.

You need to open your mind and ears to understand these issues, but I suspect you have an issue with the prices. 

For the record my view of your F260 is that it is an average speaker for the price, but hardly an end game speaker.

It's no match for the confidence range at all and cannot be used to judge products like the Naim dac.

It isn't in that league.

I know because I also got the F260.

you may need to upgrade to a contour Dynaudio speaker to hear what NDAC is capable of.

So what then?

Balance a harsh comment by one haughty?

joerand posted:

So what then?

Balance a harsh comment by one haughty?

Oh come on, it's thread about DACs; this is completely normal.  And highly amusing.  

Suggest Dynfan260 to read the review of the schiit yiggy Dac on stereophile and also the DCS reviews on the same website to gain some understanding of the issues involved in digital replay.

Especially the measurements and last comments by John Atkinson of the schiit yiggy Dac 

Per John Atkinson

It's difficult to sum up the Schiit Yggdrasil's measured behavior. While the processor's analog circuitry is superbly well designed, its digital circuitry appears to have problems with high-level, high-frequency tones, and with the LSBs of 24-bit data. It's possible, of course, that the former will be rare with music, and that the latter will be obscured by the noise floors of recordings. But it does look as if the digital circuitry is not fully optimized. Hopefully, this could be addressed with a firmware upgrade.

It might seem a bit over simple, old fashioned even,  and perhaps not the done thing in this weeks brave new digital world, but I've always found that the best way to assess a DAC and in the process, not waste my money, is to go listen to as many as possible and buy the one that that I like the most. The problem with ears, even golden ones, is that the pair attached to your head are not those of the reviewer. 

I've lost count of the number of breakthrough products that had everyone raving that turned out to be not all that much really.

One needs to be aware of the issues and what to listen for instead of posting  naive comments like dynfan260

its not that simple. Some digital sources sound good with some music but not with others

analogmusic posted:

its not that simple. Some digital sources sound good with some music but not with others

What does that mean? Are you saying that some digital sources only work with some music?Surely not? Can you name some of these useless sources? 

Read the post again please Nigel

I said they sounded better

I never wrote they only work with some kinds of music 

All hi fi replay is a balance of compromises.  

DynFan160 posted:

If you have to stick with a British brand, try [...] Metrum Acoustics Pavane and/or Onyx.

Isn't Metrum Acoustic Dutch?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Patu posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova. 

Maybe it would’ve sounded too good with the better DSP.

That did cross my mind. I sometimes wonder if some products are held back (‘crocked’ is perhaps too strong a term) to ensure that they fit the hierarchy. 

Wow. Seriously?  I thought most us on here - particularly those who have learned about Naim's performance-first philosophy, spent time at the factory etc.. - realise that there will never be such thing as a product from Naim with performance purposely held back for whatever reason.  Each product is designed to perform as best it possibly can within the allotted budget and design brief.  Performance has always been, and always will be, Naim's top priority.  I think if any "crocking" was involved there would quickly be a revolt at the factory.

Oh, and by the way, for anyone worried about the DSP processor in the NAC-N272, I checked with Steve Sells at Naim and he has confirmed that it is the 21489...

Richard Dane posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Patu posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder why the 272 has the older DSP processor, given that it was released after all the other products mentioned, other than the Nova. 

Maybe it would’ve sounded too good with the better DSP.

That did cross my mind. I sometimes wonder if some products are held back (‘crocked’ is perhaps too strong a term) to ensure that they fit the hierarchy. 

Wow. Seriously?  I thought most us on here - particularly those who have learned about Naim's performance-first philosophy, spent time at the factory etc.. - realise that there will never be such thing as a product from Naim with performance purposely held back for whatever reason.  Each product is designed to perform as best it possibly can within the allotted budget and design brief.  Performance has always been, and always will be, Naim's top priority.  I think if any "crocking" was involved there would quickly be a revolt at the factory.

Oh, and by the way, for anyone worried about the DSP processor in the NAC-N272, I checked with Steve Sells at Naim and he has confirmed that it is the 21489...

Amen.

Now, as a guy that works on contracts, I could take issue with Richards words about ‘within budget and design briefs’. Although not purposely crippled or held back, what you have stated is the reality that the design team stop seeking improvements once they hit the buffers of money or design brief. Thus the design is optimised to a point but who is to say whether it could be taken further.