The Great Ethernet Showdown 2
Posted by: Bryce Curdy on 20 March 2018
Perhaps unsurprisingly, my original post appears to have been deleted (unless I've missed it). Not surprising to me because it got hijacked by a collection of several selfish self indulgent individuals who had never listened to the cables in question and therefore had absolutely zero to contribute to the debate. These individuals can feel free to start their own post about their scientific supremacy, but leave me and the rest of us who trust our ears in peace. Perhaps the mods could sort this out.
So in my home today listening with an Atom and Totem Tribe In-Wall speakers (second system) we went from bog standard CAT5 to Chord Epic to Chord Signatue to Chord Sarum T. At this point we kept the Sarum T from Atom to home network and used the Signature to connect the NAS to the home network. And then we reverted to the original bog standard for both.
There was a clear and broadly speaking roughly similar improvement as Epic, Signature, and Sarum T were substituted. With the standard CAT5 the Music sounded somewhat muddled which Epic resolved . Signature added fluidity and effortlessness, and Sarum T simply raised it all again in every way. Dealer and I agreed that any improvement adding a posh cable between NAS and network was very marginal.
So my head says Signature, and my heart Sarum T. Definitely better (although Signaure very good), but one posh cable rather than two+ Is something I can afford, or I suppose Shoreline is an option for the NAS.
PS If I follow correctly there was some sort of challenge submitted. Subject to agreeable conditions etc I am 100% up for it.
Mike-B posted:Monsieur Rooster, you are very confusing, the PSU you are trying to tell us about has a very specific way to print the company name & the component. iFi iPower, iFi is the company & iPower is the component
Good explanation,....Thank's
/Peder ????
And we're not suggesting using an iFi iPower with a Cisco 2960 because...?
Bryce Curdy posted:And we're not suggesting using an iFi iPower with a Cisco 2960 because...?
It has an inboard supply.
G
Peter1480 posted:I also liked the Melco. It has plastic RJ45s where as others such as Chord have metal making an earth via the shield I think. I'm not sure the streamers like that. Those types of cables sounded better/different with a plastic joiner bit between the end of the cable and the streamer breaking the earth link.
......... prepared to be shot down in flames
It’s worth noting that AQ Cinnamon and Vodka have a floating screen (i.e. the screen is connected to the plug at only one end) so don’t cause network earthing issues.
For my the Chord Indigo and network fibre bridge brought by far the biggest improvements, the Cisco 2960 (old and new) in comparison was very minor.
Picked up an iFi for my Netgear GS108 recently and am very pleased with it. The original power supply was a heck of a noisy git and was throwing all sorts of hash onto the network. Currently, it has it's own dedicated mains spur (one of the 6 I had installed was free so why not?) so a bit overkill, nevertheless it's not only removed a source of noise but has given an added sense of ease to Tidal. Great vfm.
French Rooster posted:Mike-B posted:Monsieur Rooster, you are very confusing, the PSU you are trying to tell us about has a very specific way to print the company name & the component. iFi iPower, iFi is the company & iPower is the component
i am not confusing i think. Bryce Cundy could not find ifi power on google tap. I indicated him to tap the same on amazon, he will find it easily.
It's iPower with an i in front!
GraemeH posted:Bryce Curdy posted:And we're not suggesting using an iFi iPower with a Cisco 2960 because...?
It has an inboard supply.
G
According to my LW radio test as suggested by Simon, the built in PSU in the 2960 is very quiet indeed, much quieter that the iFi, so I suspect there would be nothing to gain.
Obsydian posted:For my the Chord Indigo and network fibre bridge brought by far the biggest improvements, ???? the Cisco 2960 (old and new) in comparison was very minor.????
For most of us here in Sweden, the Cisco 2960 was a big upgrade. I have write this before,if you know the level between Linn's Akurate and Klimax products......for many of us it was as big as that. Like a box upgrade❗
For some,not so many (2 or 3) it was a minor upgrade,but still an upgrade....and for the cost of just £50-70 it's amazing.
But you must have the right installation,right rubber-feets,put it on a good rack,try different power-cables.....in other words,treat the Cisco as a product in the hifi-chain.
If you have Naim Equipment,put the Cisco on another spur because it has a Switching power-supply.
This is some things you can do to get the best out of your Cisco.....there are more, but we stop here....most work ????.
/Peder ????
Peder posted:Obsydian posted:For my the Chord Indigo and network fibre bridge brought by far the biggest improvements, ???? the Cisco 2960 (old and new) in comparison was very minor.????
For most of us here in Sweden, the Cisco 2960 was a big upgrade. I have write this before,if you know the level between Linn's Akurate and Klimax products......for many of us it was as big as that. Like a box upgrade❗
For some,not so many (2 or 3) it was a minor upgrade,but still an upgrade....and for the cost of just £50-70 it's amazing.
But you must have the right installation,right rubber-feets,put it on a good rack,try different power-cables.....in other words,treat the Cisco as a product in the hifi-chain.
If you have Naim Equipment,put the Cisco on another spur because it has a Switching power-supply.
This is some things you can do to get the best out of your Cisco.....there are more, but we stop here....most work ????.
/Peder ????
PEDER - to clarify when i added the Cisco 2960 (£70 s/h - i bought a new one later) it was big, but later i added the fibre bridge (£100) and Chord Indigo (£1200), they made the Cisco 2960 a minor improvement in comparison.
Obsydian posted:Peder posted:Obsydian posted:For my the Chord Indigo and network fibre bridge brought by far the biggest improvements, ???? the Cisco 2960 (old and new) in comparison was very minor.????
For most of us here in Sweden, the Cisco 2960 was a big upgrade. I have write this before,if you know the level between Linn's Akurate and Klimax products......for many of us it was as big as that. Like a box upgrade❗
For some,not so many (2 or 3) it was a minor upgrade,but still an upgrade....and for the cost of just £50-70 it's amazing.
But you must have the right installation,right rubber-feets,put it on a good rack,try different power-cables.....in other words,treat the Cisco as a product in the hifi-chain.
If you have Naim Equipment,put the Cisco on another spur because it has a Switching power-supply.
This is some things you can do to get the best out of your Cisco.....there are more, but we stop here....most work ????.
/Peder ????
PEDER - to clarify when i added the Cisco 2960 (£70 s/h - i bought a new one later) it was big, but later i added the fibre bridge (£100) and Chord Indigo (£1200), they made the Cisco 2960 a minor improvement in comparison.
Obsydian,now I'm with you ????????????....fine that you explane this. I remember that I have read that you buy a new after your first s/h Cisco.
A friend just have a "try-out" between eht-cables,he also like the Chord around that price....it must be the same,have forget the name. Today it arrived some eht-cables from USA to him,it shall be interesting to hear what he think about them.
This friend is around 50 years old,has had toplevel systems from Linn and Naim,but just now he has Lejonklou Hifi's best pre/ power amps with Linn Klimax DS-streamer. He only goes for soundquality and musicality,
Maybe I can report back on this later.
/Peder ????
Simon-in-Suffolk posted:MangoMonkey posted:docmark posted:Got it. Are there better grades of switches? The netgear gs105 is quite cheap - $34 on Amazon. In your opinion, is there something like an audiophile grade switch? Does that even exist?
If you don't want to go down the Cisco 2960 route (buy used for around $50), you should consider the Cisco branded (maybe it's really linksys) SG110D05NA or the 8 port version.
The Netgear consistently make the music sound a little hot on the top-end - a little too bright etc.
I would question this. By all means use the Catalyst family of switches made by Cisco as many have found they have improved ‘things’ with their Naim digital audio... if not then different switches will perhaps bring differeing benefits if at all... it’s not really a brand label thing.. you might find a Belkin, Linksys, Netgear etc works for you. Certainly you can’t assume any device with Cisco badge on it, if not a Catalyst, brings the benefits that many have discussed on the forum... it may bring its own benefits but is as equally likely as a particular Belkin etc...
Agreed Simon. In fact, in my installation and to my ears the 2960 -8TC L V01 that I bought on the bay following the original discussion on the forum doesn’t sound as good as the ZyXEL GS1100-16 that I now use. For me, the music with the Cisco had a slightly steely edged quality that I found made the listening very slightly uncomfortable by comparison. I still have it though and may swap it back in at some point just to see if it still sounds that way or not.
The Catalyst series of switches are expensive for a reason - it reflects the quality of the components and quality of engineering. They are designed to work as part of large systems with hundreds of other network components all located in the same place. To make this reliable they are designed to minimise uncontrolled interactions with other components (such as excessive latency, bandwidth limitations and electrical noise). These design features are, I believe, where we see the benefit due to the minimisation of the uncontrolled interaction with the network interface of the Naim streamers.
Changing the network cable can also change the way these interactions between network components are manifest in the analogue electronics of the streamers.
In my system, I still intend to test
Generic Cat6 UTP
Generic Cat6a SFTP
Meicord Cat6 UTP
Chord C-Stream (Cat7 STP).
The top two will be tested with and without ferrites.
Huge posted:The Catalyst series of switches are expensive for a reason - it reflects the quality of the components and quality of engineering. They are designed to work as part of large systems with hundreds of other network components all located in the same place. To make this reliable they are designed to minimise uncontrolled interactions with other components (such as excessive latency, bandwidth limitations and electrical noise). These design features are, I believe where we see the benefit due to the minimisation of the interaction with the network interface of the Naim streamers.
Interesting, thanks Huge. Any thoughts on why l might have had SQ issues with mine? It’s pretty old - July 2007 - but seems to be in good order. it’s been a while since I tried it and I’ve made quite a few changes in the network since I last did, so maybe time to try it again..
Huge posted:The Catalyst series of switches are expensive for a reason - it reflects the quality of the components and quality of engineering. They are designed to work as part of large systems with hundreds of other network components all located in the same place. To make this reliable they are designed to minimise uncontrolled interactions with other components (such as excessive latency, bandwidth limitations and electrical noise). These design features are, I believe, where we see the benefit due to the minimisation of the uncontrolled interaction with the network interface of the Naim streamers.
Are they specifically engineered in this way Huge or are they just built to a higher standard than the usual consumer grade kit to meet the more stringent reliability requirements in the professional sector ?
James
kevin J Carden posted:Interesting, thanks Huge. Any thoughts on why l might have had SQ issues with mine? It’s pretty old - July 2007 - but seems to be in good order. it’s been a while since I tried it and I’ve made quite a few changes in the network since I last did, so maybe time to try it again..
You write it yourself ????....it's old,juli 2007.
I have write about this before on this forum. This Cisco's goes 24/7 hours in a computer room somewhere,year after year......before we buy it.
Think recapp,than you know what I mean,but if you recapp your power supply-card, you shall have a surprice ????.
We have done that on one Cisco 2960 and it was from 2007. Now a guy here have start to build a linear power supple for the Cisco 2960......a big one ????.This must be really good if you have Naim equipment......cause Naim doesn't like switching power-supply's involved in the system.
◾If you have an older Cisco,you must at least have it in your system for around 3weeks,before you take any decissions against others. No fast a-b test❗
◾You can also open you Cisco,and pull the cable from the power supply-card to the audioboard, up and down 10 times to clean it and get better contact.
Back too work,...... /Peder ????
For me Cisco was nothing compared to D-Links and the bridge (in my case complicated but it works) , you can see it in my previous posts. Just waiting now for a good lan cable from Chord, Cardas or others to test this last missing point. But even now, the quality and soundstage are amazing, just amazing.
Peder posted:kevin J Carden posted:Interesting, thanks Huge. Any thoughts on why l might have had SQ issues with mine? It’s pretty old - July 2007 - but seems to be in good order. it’s been a while since I tried it and I’ve made quite a few changes in the network since I last did, so maybe time to try it again..
You write it yourself ????....it's old,juli 2007.
I have write about this before on this forum. This Cisco's goes 24/7 hours in a computer room somewhere,year after year......before we buy it.
Think recapp,than you know what I mean,but if you recapp your power supply-card, you shall have a surprice ????.
We have done that on one Cisco 2960 and it was from 2007. Now a guy here have start to build a linear power supple for the Cisco 2960......a big one ????.This must be really good if you have Naim equipment......cause Naim doesn't like switching power-supply's involved in the system.
◾If you have an older Cisco,you must at least have it in your system for around 3weeks,before you take any decissions against others. No fast a-b test❗
◾You can also open you Cisco,and pull the cable from the power supply-card to the audioboard, up and down 10 times to clean it and get better contact.
Back too work,...... /Peder ????
Thanks Peder. I kind of assumed that a switch would either work or be in a failed state, but what you say makes sense, especially if components in the power supply might have degraded with time and use. Question is, can these parts be economically replaced?
Tesilk posted:For me Cisco was nothing compared to D-Links and the bridge (in my case complicated but it works) , you can see it in my previous posts. Just waiting now for a good lan cable from Chord, Cardas or others to test this last missing point. But even now, the quality and soundstage are amazing, just amazing.
Here in Sweden,we have in many years tested different swith'es. At the Linn-forum Selleri,the Lejonklou-forum (he lives here i Sweden) and on the forum I'm on now.
To this date, the Cisco 2960 is the best we have heard. But,as I have told/write earlier......you must take your time with the installation,the Cisco is a component in the hifi-chain.
I have seen many guy's not having any feet under their Cisco for example.......BIG MISTAKE❗ ..... Also write about earlier.
This not in England,but in other countries.I shall try too explane it in english. You can turn the contact on the power-cable 180 degres....the side who shall sitt in the wall.....one direction is much better than the other. Hope you understand what I mean.
/Peder ????
kevin J Carden posted:Huge posted:The Catalyst series of switches are expensive for a reason - it reflects the quality of the components and quality of engineering. They are designed to work as part of large systems with hundreds of other network components all located in the same place. To make this reliable they are designed to minimise uncontrolled interactions with other components (such as excessive latency, bandwidth limitations and electrical noise). These design features are, I believe where we see the benefit due to the minimisation of the interaction with the network interface of the Naim streamers.
Interesting, thanks Huge. Any thoughts on why l might have had SQ issues with mine? It’s pretty old - July 2007 - but seems to be in good order. it’s been a while since I tried it and I’ve made quite a few changes in the network since I last did, so maybe time to try it again..
you are not alone Kevin to find the cisco a bit edgy. I have found the same and other members , not many, didn’t like the cisco 2960-8tc. But with good quality lan, with soft and fluid presentation, this edginess can disappear. Or with a network bridge ( i use one).
If you don’t want expensive lans or network bridge, you can add an ifi power to your zykel.....
kevin J Carden posted:Thanks Peder. I kind of assumed that a switch would either work or be in a failed state, but what you say makes sense, especially if components in the power supply might have degraded with time and use. Question is, can these parts be economically replaced?
Hard to say,we are so lucky that we have guy at our forum who is really good at this things.
And it's importent that it is the same components,.....components can sound different,even in a power supply.Believe me ????. But the work is easy to do,and than you have a new Cisco-switch.
The power supply-card is easy to take out, if you will send it to maybe ClassA, Four screws and the cable to the audioboard you pull up....that's that.To open the switch,one screw on the top and one on each side.....just three.....than with the front against you,just lift the front-top up.
/Peder ????
Sorry to drift the thread just a little bit, but we had a few posts w.r.t. the iFi iPower PSU. Well whatever some god/devil has been awakened; this morning when I powered up Radio Paradise, silence, No Network, further checked & found iFi iPower was dead. D#### that was the 2nd failure, first one was on a Netgear switch after a very short time & the vendor swapped it with no questions. This one has been in use about 2 years (refund warranty is under negotiation). Whatever I am not going iFi again, back to the original Cisco SMPS in the meantime.
A while back my Linn DS buddy started using a replacement wall wart PSU called Friwo, it seems they are well rated on the Linn & Lejonklou forums Friwo is a German cmpy, they are sold as medical approved (whatever that is) & is reputed to be 'RFI' quiet, and I've tested my Linn buddy system with the LW/AM/SW radio test & can conform they are indeed quiet.
Just ordered a Friwo MMP15 (12vDC 1.25A) ... should be delivered Monday (?) ... will write a report whatever the SQ +/- result
Well, as least having a powered Cisco, I won’t be able to experiment with the Friwo. A whole new world of discussion awaits...
Mike-B posted:Sorry to drift the thread just a little bit, but we had a few posts w.r.t. the iFi iPower PSU. Well whatever some god/devil has been awakened; this morning when I powered up Radio Paradise, silence, No Network, further checked & found iFi iPower was dead. D#### that was the 2nd failure, first one was on a Netgear switch after a very short time & the vendor swapped it with no questions. This one has been in use about 2 years (refund warranty is under negotiation). Whatever I am not going iFi again, back to the original Cisco SMPS in the meantime.
A while back my Linn DS buddy started using a replacement wall wart PSU called Friwo, it seems they are well rated on the Linn & Lejonklou forums Friwo is a German cmpy, they are sold as medical approved (whatever that is) & is reputed to be 'RFI' quiet, and I've tested my Linn buddy system with the LW/AM/SW radio test & can conform they are indeed quiet.
Just ordered a Friwo MMP15 (12vDC 1.25A) ... should be delivered Monday (?) ... will write a report whatever the SQ +/- result
presumably you know radio paradise was actually down this morning? 