The Great Ethernet Showdown 2

Hungryhalibut posted:

Well, as least having a powered Cisco, I won’t be able to experiment with the Friwo. A whole new world of discussion awaits...

Ahh shame,  just think what you're gonna miss           I will just be writing up whatever it sounds like & thats it,  a network switch PSU will be low down the SQ gains order (IMO) so if there is a whole new world of discussion,  I'll leave it to others.      

And as for Mercky,  yes RP was down alright,  my iFi iPower made sure of that.   

Mike-B posted:

And as for Mercky,  yes RP was down alright,  my iFi iPower made sure of that.   

It must be really bad if it can take out a server in California 

Staying with the iFi iPower thread drift for just one more post;   another thread has news of a LPS vs SMPS test reported on Computer Audiophile,  www search on  "Power Supply (8+) Group Test, LPS and SMPS"   Its a test carried out by a Chinese computer guy (& translated)  & some of the PSU's he tests are not familiar to this forum.   

It concluded:    The best is the 9V battery (benchmark).   iFi iPower is so close to the battery.   Many LPSs didn’t do well at all & are NOT guaranteed to have good performance so you need to choose carefully.   But overall SMPS is not as good as LPS (ex iFi iPower)

But after 2x iPower unit failures (my bad luck I guess) I've moved to Friwo MMP15 

Mike interesting... and supports what I have said a few times, a linear powersupply is not neccessarily better, and depending on design and what it is connected to can make matters worse.... slightly ironic in a way seeing that that some of the most guilty culprits of noisy SMPS come from China...

I also saw the irony of the China link Simon.  Also on another thread is a mention of Robb Watts saying much the same & that the quietest PSU in his lab is a SMPS.

SMPS   Lots of info about them, and this will be the core of psu in audio in the next few years and that will include power amplifiers,   LARGE out power supplies will be switch mode.  Physically small ,efficient,cheaper to manufacture and reliable ,with less servicing .  more life style and less boxes   .great news for all. 

I hope Naim’s designers are listening to users’ experience here.  May be more music servers / streamers should follow the route taken by the designers of the Sonic Transporter i7 and include two Ethernet ports - one for internet one to connect to network stored music?  This doesn’t appear to be available in the UK but seems to neatly get around some of the issues described above.  The cost of adding a second port to a high end component cannot be that great?

i can’t say if some smps sound better than some linear ps, but for my experience with netgear switch and tp link with stock smps, the ifi power 5 v i had before sounded better. But my hdplex and uptone linear ps, much more expensive also, sound better by a good and clear margin, so they stay...

The uptone is powering also my unitserve.  

I agree to some extent M. Coq,  'clean/quiet' DC is important,  but don't forget that both SMPS & LPS can push switching or regulator noise back into the mains,  this can pollute everything on the same power branch.  All PSU's need a filter to suppress/prevent this & I'm not so sure that many pay attention to that.   I'm content that my system has this aspect covered as all the SMPS's are powered from a UPS that has an internal isolation transformer & C&D mode filter,  so mains side pollution from the SMPS's is at least suppressed.

But bottom line is how can we be sure a noisy PSU of any type causes sub-optimal SQ,  does RFI radiation equate into degraded SQ?    I found the iFi iPower to improve SQ on a Netgear, but only very subtly,  the same when I changed the Netgear to a Cisco SG110.   Whereas a friend was a lot more enthusiastic when he fitted an iPower on his Netgear feeding a Linn KDS 

I'm looking forward to listening to my new Friwo MMP15 when it arrives tomorrow.   I've already tested one with the LW/AM radio RFI test & it is a lot 'quieter' than a standard SMPS, but will that translate into real & audible SQ improvements   ??? 

michael17 posted:

and include two Ethernet ports - one for internet one to connect to network stored music?  ...

This makes no sense what so ever..... and is completely unnecessary and i would not recommend for optimum SQ. Our streamers needs to be  hosts not switches and certainly not a router!!!

S

French Rooster posted:

i can’t say if some smps sound better than some linear ps, but for my experience with netgear switch and tp link with stock smps, the ifi power 5 v i had before sounded better. But my hdplex and uptone linear ps, much more expensive also, sound better by a good and clear margin, so they stay...

The uptone is powering also my unitserve.  

I agree, even if some smps measurements are stunning in real life some linear ones sounds better. There is more than some millivolts measurements affecting, e.g. load.

Mike-B posted:

… my iFi iPower PSU is dead ... Just ordered a Friwo MMP15 (12vDC 1.25A) ... will write a report whatever the SQ +/- result 

New Friwo MMP15 arrived this morning. The old defunct iFi iPower & the Cisco SMPS DC cables were both thin enough to take 4 turns (passes) through a mix 75 clip-on ferrite, doing this not only raises the impedance by times the number of turns, but also shifts the impedance peak fs lower (both useful for SMPS suppression) The Friwo DC cable is a much larger diameter & I could only (only just) get 2 turns (passes), oh well such is life. 

I first tested a mates Friwo a while back using the LW/AM/SW radio test, that proved to be very quiet. Before installing this new one I measured DC voltage off & on load, that proved to be very stable with a very small 0.02vDC drop under load. Friwo specs show DC ripple is <=120uV(pp), so overall it looks like a pretty good & stable SMPS.

What about the SQ? Compared to the Cisco's little OEM SMPS my 1st impressions are that the changes are all subtle but positive. The presentation has more clarity & detail,  this seems to bring more musicality in that I can follow a tune better.  I get am impression the sound stage has more separation & depth. There does seem a more natural sound with voice & acoustic instruments, most noticeable is well recorded piano. Its a shame I can't compare it to the iPower,  but whatever Friwo is a keeper.

I thought you were all a bit mad - lovely, but just a smidge on the mad side. Network cables don’t make any difference at all, that’s silly. I’ve been running my system with a flat, ribbon-type CAT 5e cable from good ol’ Maplin for years. Nothing wrong with it...

But never one to be ignorant, I thought I should at least try to see if network cables sounded different, so I could be confident I wasn’t missing something. So, although not an “audiophile” cable, I thought I’d try a well constructed and, crucially,  fully shielded Cat 7 cable.

Left it playing for a day.

Sat down. Listened. 

Awful! My system sounds terrible. Sharp, overblown, no bass. Must be the new XPS Burndy. God, it’s bad. But I’ll just switch the cables back, in case...

...oh. That’s a lot better. It sounds natural again. There’s that lovely bass thump.

You’re not mad afterall. :-)

Seth

Seth posted:

I thought you were all a bit mad - lovely, but just a smidge on the mad side. Network cables don’t make any difference at all, that’s silly. I’ve been running my system with a flat, ribbon-type CAT 5e cable from good ol’ Maplin for years. Nothing wrong with it...

But never one to be ignorant, I thought I should at least try to see if network cables sounded different, so I could be confident I wasn’t missing something. So, although not an “audiophile” cable, I thought I’d try a well constructed and, crucially,  fully shielded Cat 7 cable.

Left it playing for a day.

Sat down. Listened. 

Awful! My system sounds terrible. Sharp, overblown, no bass. Must be the new XPS Burndy. God, it’s bad. But I’ll just switch the cables back, in case...

...oh. That’s a lot better. It sounds natural again. There’s that lovely bass thump.

You’re not mad afterall. :-)

Seth

You make a serious point Seth. I just bought a 2 metre Supra Cat8 cable, just so I could experiment with moving my ‘music’ switch and NAS physically away from the rest of my overcrowded and probably noisy ‘data cupboard ‘ . I haven’t moved anything yet, but in the meantime I thought I’d try it between switch and  Unitiserve. Sounded awful, very sharp and Steely. Nasty. Take it out, back to music. Try it between switch and router. Same bad results. Wherever I try it, it ruins the sound. Very odd, but on the other hand,  your experience and mine at least suggests that cables sound different - if not always better. 

From an engineering perspective it would be bizarre  if Ethernet cables when loosely coupled to revealing and sensitive audio components did not ‘sound’ different. As said difference doesn’t neccessarily mean ‘better’ but just different. The TI engineering white paper on their Ethernet line noise reducer devices goes into details why if anyone is interested.... I am not sure why non computer / electronic engineers find this and the whole area of system coupling so hard to comprehend.... 

You may need to remove the metal RJ45 cover at the end, I remember that I've read somewhere that it is bad for the grounding.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... I am not sure why non computer / electronic engineers find this and the whole area of system coupling so hard to comprehend.... 

Perhaps, decades of marketing that says “digital” means “perfect” transmission of audio data without loss, error or distortion? Perhaps, an expectation that audio manufacturers would take every precaution to ensure a network cable doesn’t change the sound of their £4k + products?  

Frank Yang posted:

You may need to remove the metal RJ45 cover at the end, I remember that I've read somewhere that it is bad for the grounding.

I thought my switch (an Apple device) wouldn’t ground the screens, but on closer inspection, the plastic sockets do have little contacts either side, suggesting they do make a grounding contact. I’d also read some of Simon’s advice about connecting the screen only at one end, so thought there could be a grounding problem. I may try disconnecting at the NDX end.

Seth posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... I am not sure why non computer / electronic engineers find this and the whole area of system coupling so hard to comprehend.... 

Perhaps, decades of marketing that says “digital” means “perfect” transmission of audio data without loss, error or distortion? Perhaps, an expectation that audio manufacturers would take every precaution to ensure a network cable doesn’t change the sound of their £4k + products?  

Sadly, even at £4k, it's not possible to put in enough engineering to totally block the coupling of all RFI without also blocking all the signals!

It's also possible that the precautions necessary to reduce the effect of the interference to completely irrelevant levels could impinge on the desired (Naim type) sound characteristics (musicality, PRaT or whatever you want to call it).

Just because an Ethernet RJ45 cocket has a metal surround, doesn't necessarily mean that it's grounded.

I measured the continuity from the shield connection of the Ethernet socket on my 272 to the phono socket shells and to the IEC earth pin, in both cases the resistance was too high to measure (>20MΩ) (Ground switch set to Chassis).  The Ethernet socket may be metal, but it's not grounded!

When I measured the ND5 XS I seem to recall that the Ethernet shield was connected to the IEC earth pin.

Seth,  the ground/earth on an ethernet shield should ideally/theoretically be made at only one point.  This is assuming all the sections of shields in the various ethernet cables are each connected together.   There are so many possible permutations & unknowns with the info you have given - e.g. what Apple 'device',  what other cables are on your LAN & whats connected to them.     Whatever,   I doubt very much that replacing an unshielded Cat5e (UTP) with a shielded (STP) & interconnecting 2x earths would cause the loss of SQ as you described.    In the hifi/audio world there must be so many users who unknowingly replace UTP cables with STP & have unknowingly ended up with more than one earth/ground on the network,  these people do not report awful, terrible overblown & no bass,  more likely the opposite.    My logic says you have another cause for this loss of SQ.   Before you start taking the cable to pieces,  I would look elsewhere & also consider that the cable itself might be faulty.    Also can you tell us what your ethernet system consists of, how its connected & with what ethernet cables (UTP or STP)

Huge posted:

When I measured the ND5 XS I seem to recall that the Ethernet shield was connected to the IEC earth pin.

My NDX RJ45 port shroud is connected with earth,  I assume all Naim ports are this way.  

Seth posted:

Frank Yang posted:

You may need to remove the metal RJ45 cover at the end, I remember that I've read somewhere that it is bad for the grounding.

I thought my switch (an Apple device) wouldn’t ground the screens, but on closer inspection, the plastic sockets do have little contacts either side, suggesting they do make a grounding contact. I’d also read some of Simon’s advice about connecting the screen only at one end, so thought there could be a grounding problem. I may try disconnecting at the NDX end.

Sounds like you need a Lindy adapter, unless you are planning to do this surgically. 

Mike-B posted:

Whatever,   I doubt very much that replacing an unshielded Cat5e (UTP) with a shielded (STP) & interconnecting 2x earths would cause the loss of SQ as you described.   

It was more of an anecdote, Mike-B, but this cable does have an obvious impact on the sound, so no doubts really required.

Thanks,

Seth

Seth posted:

It was more of an anecdote, Mike-B, but this cable does have an obvious impact on the sound, so no doubts really required.

I'm confused  .........  in your post you wrote:  Awful! My system sounds terrible. Sharp, overblown, no bass.     An anecdote is a brief, revealing account of an incident.    So is your SQ change description accurate or not. ???