Disappointed with Star and path moving forward

Hi,

Sorry to hear of your problems. I cannot answer your questions. What answers does your Naim dealer give to them?

Naim dealer mention better to go for NAC-A5 cable 3.5m minimum. Speaker they did not comment as they focus on Focal and Neat only. I did hear the demo with Star+NAP 250DR and I did not feel too overwhelm by it.

I also demo the NAC 272 + NAP 250 DR and it did sound quite better but not too crazy also. 

Mech,

from your post I can only assume that you purchased the Star and the speakers separately without having listened to the two together?

However, I also assume that you listened to each paired to a different pair of speakers in the case of the Star, and a different amp and source in the case of the Dynaudios, and that in each case the result was good enough to lead to a purchase. 

Anyway, you have what you have, and Naim and Dynaudios usually mate together pretty well, so probably best to try to maximise performance from what you have at the moment.  

First things first, how are the speakers mounted? - on stands I hope, and good ones at that.  Are they properly spiked and level, with no rocking?  Are the speaker cables correctly terminated? Naim speaker plugs soldered at the amp end and whatever matches the Dynaudios best at the speaker end?  Yes, I would have recommended at least 3.5m of NACA5 speaker cable, but Chord Epic should be fine and 2.5m per channel likely won't damage the Star.

Have you tried different positioning of the speakers?  Room optioning can be critical? What size room is it? Square or cubic rooms can cause big problems.

Is the room quite lively or well damped?

I'm afraid this is just the tip of the iceberg of a number of questions, starting with the source of your music - streaming, CD, MP3??  Anyway, assuming the best quality source, can you get your dealer involved here?  Did they install the system for you?  If so, what did they think?

I doubt if changing to proper lenght of A5 makes the massive difference you seek for.

I'm afraid its either upgrade significantly on the Amp side, or replace the Loudspeakers.

Personally, I like Dynaudio Special 40's, but have you a possibility to demo something Proac Tablettes (which I like too but in a different way)?

Indeed I make separate purchase without listening to them together as I make the assumption that Naim + Dynaudio should be fine together. As you mention they do in fact mate well haha.

It was indeed on Dynaudio Stand 6 and spiked, but one side is rocking and I already replaced it twice and still it rocks slightly. But just weee bit slightly, so I just tolerate it

Glad to hear the Chord EPIC 2.5m cable should be okay.

I have no idea if speaker properly terminated, will need to find out. It is simply 2 banana plug without using Naim's plugs. I don't there is directionality right for Chord EPIC. I saw some cable got direction label, but mine EPIC don't have any indicator.

Not heard Dyn Special 40's so can't comment.    However I have listened to the little 40W Atom driving Focal Sopra-1's & was impressed how good & how loud it could go so I would expect your Star 70W to be well able to drive them.  I read Dyn Special 40 reviews that used similar powered amps,  incl Nait 5 @ 60W,   & they are very highly rated in those reviews.  So your description of how you hear the SQ seems very odd.      I don't want to insult you,  but have you double checked on speaker cable connections are correct phase +/+ & -/-  on both channels ??           

Re speaker cable - the 3.5m rule applies only to Naim NACA5 cable & is more specific to the older design amps,  its actually specifying an inductance load - NACA5 is 1uH/m & the amp needs a 3.5uH load.   However don't panic,  reading the Star www info on speaker cables it appears they are not being too specific over length - although they recommend to use NACA5 ( au naturel )

Silly question, but worth asking just in case: have you checked that both speakers are connected to the amp the same way round, and not one opposite (out of phase) to the other?

I follow the color-coded speaker cable that matched black-black and red-red so I guess the connection is correct. Reading many reviews, it does seems clear to me Atom or Star are very capable of performing and that is exactly the reason I get them. Probably I should try the NACA5 first with proper Naim Plug just to be sure.

I would not worry about the speaker leads. Epic is a good cable. I would focus on how you have your speakers positioned. Ask the dealer who supplied them for help. Were you happy when you heard them in the shop? Are they located about 2m apart, angled slightly inwards and with a bit of distance from the wall? What exactly is wrong with the sound? Is it worse than it was in the shop?

I have Dynaudio S3.4 w/CDX2-Naim 202-hicapDR-NAPSC-200, Van den Hull Magnum cable and everything sings fine. With 250DR even better.

I have also Dynaudio Excite X12 w/ Naim Hicute2, Van den Hull cable and everything sings fine also.

Maybe the problem is not the Dynaudios nor the Naims...

Okay I hope I am not being unreasonable with sound reproduction differences from speaker vs earphone. I will try to describe my expectation and maybe it is all wrong... but I try

You know when you use IEM and listen, you can hear instrument clearly (I am using just the Klipsch X6i). Some guitar sound like the barely audible 'zzzz' sound can be heard from IEM. But with speaker, you sort of need to hunt for it and even then you can barely hear it.

Is this quite impossible (due to the fact that IEM are stuck into your ear) or I am having wrong expectation of speaker haha..

Also when trying to play low volume on speaker is really very strange. With my Jambox when low volume I can enjoy the spatial treatment.. but the speaker when low volume is like very muted.. 

I think probably I have Hi-Fi speaker expectation all wrong..

It's possible Naum or Dyn is not to your liking. It happens. Nothing wrong with it until you spend lots of cash without hearing them first. I've done it before with other equipment. Star/S40 should be a great combo assuming you like Naim and Dynaudio. 

Did you listen to either/both the Star with speakers, Dynaudio with another amp, before buying? If so did you like what you heard? (and what were those speakers/amp?) how dfid it compare with your earphone experience?

this is just trying to get some sort of feel for where the problem might lie

I’m afraid you are used to the direct sound of the iem. In comparison not many Hifi can produce the detail and immersive effect of iem. I doubt even a 552/300dr with focal sopra 2 can give you that experience.  It’s just different. What the Hifi can give you is the visceral effect, the soundstage and the depth which the iem cannot produce. However the Hifi can’t give you the closeness and highly detailed music of iem. If Hifi does not work for you, save the money for a good pair of iem. Personally iem does not work for me however there are strengths I can’t deny. 

I think I sort of get what you mean Kaydee6. I probably wish the speaker to have the closeness of sound to me which is quite impossible. Having not owned any Hi-Fi speaker before, maybe my expectation is all wrong and thus has the unsatisfactory being felt when listening to low volume as well as can't heard the instruments in detail.

I think you are right in saying speaker is more for visceral effect and soundstage and maybe I am relying too much on IEM to enjoy music.

I’m unclear what the zzz is tgat you describe as missing in the speakers - what part of the guitar sound is it?

If bass is the problem, then bear in mind that small speakers won’t give you bass like decent headphones can (or like bass boosting cheap headphones can).  I am unfamiliar with the Klipsch you mention, so I have no idea how they perform.

Not sure how to describe the guitar sound. But you can hear this by Harvey Reid - Amazing Grace/Swing Low Sweet Chariot at Tidal.

It is like when the hand rest on the guitar string maybe... I am not sure.

mech posted:

Not sure how to describe the guitar sound. But you can hear this by Harvey Reid - Amazing Grace/Swing Low Sweet Chariot at Tidal.

It is like when the hand rest on the guitar string maybe... I am not sure.

The buzzing of the strings as they lightly touch something, perhaps, like where the ‘action’ is set too low on the guitar and they touch ftrets they shouldn’t, or the player is wearing something hard that just touches the strings at odd times? Definitely not buzzing caused by a fault in the earphones, where might get a similar effect if something like a stray fibre is just touching the diaphragm, excited at certain frequencies?

mech posted:

I think I sort of get what you mean Kaydee6. I probably wish the speaker to have the closeness of sound to me which is quite impossible. Having not owned any Hi-Fi speaker before, maybe my expectation is all wrong and thus has the unsatisfactory being felt when listening to low volume as well as can't heard the instruments in detail.

I think you are right in saying speaker is more for visceral effect and soundstage and maybe I am relying too much on IEM to enjoy music.

Yes, no super lumina or speaker change will help until you have decided that Hifi is right for you. My wife loves her wireless B&O iem and so far not many Hifi audition satisfies her no matter the price because detail and immersion is priority for her. 

I now probably know where my deep seated dissatisfaction comes from. Probably prior to owning a Hi-Fi speaker, I always listen to IEM and prefer the immersion and closeness of the music. Tks so much you guys for sharing the insight.

Maybe I will change to NACA5 cable and let it run in for 6 months then see how things goes.

To me it sounds like a combination of source mediocre quality (did you play any cd's ?) along with a lousy setup, loose spikes etc..

If I was you deliver the kit back and purchase a Muso Qb, perhaps thats all you ever need ?

mech posted:

I now probably know where my deep seated dissatisfaction comes from. Probably prior to owning a Hi-Fi speaker, I always listen to IEM and prefer the immersion and closeness of the music. Tks so much you guys for sharing the insight.

Maybe I will change to NACA5 cable and let it run in for 6 months then see how things goes.

I’m curious as to why you havent responded to so e of the questions asked in the effort to try to help you. 

If you’ve decided you know what the answer is, then so be it...

mech posted:

I follow the color-coded speaker cable that matched black-black and red-red so I guess the connection is correct. Reading many reviews, it does seems clear to me Atom or Star are very capable of performing and that is exactly the reason I get them. Probably I should try the NACA5 first with proper Naim Plug just to be sure.

OK, but also check that one of the speaker cables isn't wired incorrectly. That is, make sure the red end is actually connected to the red end for each cable. Then, if you plug red to red etc. you'll be OK. Perhaps, just an experiment, also try flipping one end at the speaker. It should sound a bit odd and worse, with less bass definition.

Oh I am sorry, I thought it has been addressed. Lots of insight that I need to look into and adjust. Hmms.. 

winkyincanada - yup I will need to check the cable too..