4.6 update SQ

Nick Lees posted:

The 272 got specific attention for 4.6

Maybe up to 552 pre level, bonus.

Nick Lees posted:

The 272 got specific attention for 4.6

...Now I am intrigued...

G

Mike-B posted:

As Nick Lees says  sonic signature is a tricky thing & we have to acknowledge that.    A while back in beta testing it got well divided with differing opinions,  most NDX'ers liked it but some NDS'ers didn't.   Whereas this rev was pretty well unanimously given the thumbs up especially when 272 got fine tuned.    The naysayers leave me wondering why they don't like it,  when the vast majority do ??? 

Hi Mike, hope you're well. This is the second time you've used the term 'naysayers' in various threads about this. I believe your first citation suggested that they be 'slayed', which has the benefit, I suppose, of being quite rhyme-y.

Given that I voiced my personal dissatisfaction with the DSP update, I guess I am a 'naysayer'. But actually, I'm a 'yaysayer'. I assert that the DSP alteration has altered the sound, as it was designed to do, and in concert with the learned opinions of the beta testers and Naim staff. A naysayer, in this instance, would not recognise an alteration in sound.

My point is that I had arrive at the sound I wanted over time and by various purchases; a WitchHat interconnect, Tellurium speaker cabling, a PL, a CB NAP 250, to name a few. This DSP alteration essentially gave a turbo boost of previous corrections meaning that the new totality is worse.  

I'm sure it benefits the majority of base units in the range, and for that, peoples' work is to be applauded. I guess an interesting philosophical question can be asked of its deleterious effect on a probable minority, with the obvious proviso that you can 'roll-back' on legacy streamers.

Alley Cat posted:

Nick Lees posted:

The 272 got specific attention for 4.6

A question I'd find interesting to know the answer to is whether or not the Uniti Atom/Nova/Star had any specific changes to the DSP or if it was only older models.  Something changed with 2.3.1 for Nova for me, and I don't htink it's that different with 2.6.9508 subsequently.

Assuming I'm not imagining it, and there was no change, then have I suddenly become weary of digital audio?

I honestly don’t know. I was using a Star during these latest tests, and with hand on heart couldn’t tell any sonic difference between the previous release, the Beta, and the 2.6 release. The Star was in use for 16 hours a day throughout nearly two months and I’d have screamed like a banshee (as would other new Uniti testers) if there’d been something remotely wonky.

I didn't like the sound of my NDS after the 4.6 update. No great problems but the sound was a bit boring and lifeless.
(No changes after a Factory reset)

Now after some days i've changed back to version 4.4 and the good sound is back. :-)

Nick Lees posted:

Alley Cat posted:

Nick Lees posted:

The 272 got specific attention for 4.6

A question I'd find interesting to know the answer to is whether or not the Uniti Atom/Nova/Star had any specific changes to the DSP or if it was only older models.  Something changed with 2.3.1 for Nova for me, and I don't htink it's that different with 2.6.9508 subsequently.

Assuming I'm not imagining it, and there was no change, then have I suddenly become weary of digital audio?

I honestly don’t know. I was using a Star during these latest tests, and with hand on heart couldn’t tell any sonic difference between the previous release, the Beta, and the 2.6 release. The Star was in use for 16 hours a day throughout nearly two months and I’d have screamed like a banshee (as would other new Uniti testers) if there’d been something remotely wonky.

I think chances are it's a question of overall synergy within the system and that for some of us the new firmware disrupts this leading to a holistically poor experience.

Such a shame Naim have decided not to allow new Uniti series owners to roll-back to older firmware - if we could do so we'd either be coming back saying, no, actually it sounds the same or that the older firmware was better.  There must be ways of getting the older firmware back, I can think of some, though they would affect all users globally by offering an update when many might not want to.

Nick Lees posted:

It’s an issue worthy of debate.

We buy our gear to suit our ears, our tastes, the rest of the system  and our rooms. Usually after a home demo to ensure all fits sonically (albeit with minor tweaks, such as speaker placement etc.)

To then find a key source has a different sonic signature is a tricky thing. We have to trust Naim’s judgement, but they don’t have access to our ears/room/kit. Though the Beta Test system is a pretty good way of experiencing a broad(ish) set of circumstances.

My experiences of the different firmware sonics for both NDX and Star have been completely positive, but I can understand others may be dismayed if a delicate balancing act has been knocked awry.

Perfectly put Nick. Whether or not Naim’s decision to alter the sound on our behalf is correct (and I’m 110% sure that they sincerely believe it’s an improvement) I find it bizarre that they would risk upsetting users who (lets be honest, and I certainly include myself) pride themselves on having carefully and painstakingly assembled and fine tuned their systems down to choice of NAS drive, Network switch and Ethernet cables based on how their streamer sounds with 4.4 FW. Some will think 4.6 an improvement, but the fact is that the sound is now different at source.  Randomly risking upsetting your greatest asset - an almost irrationally trusting user base - is a very odd business model as I see it. 

Obsydian posted:

Alley Cat posted:

French Rooster posted:

do a factory reset and normally i will be better....some members pointed that in the thread” 4.6 update and upgrade sound quality?”. They were not pleased with the update but after the factory reset they were pleased....

Forgot to mention - did that with 2.3.1 and no improvement.  Same with current firmware.

Down the same straight after the update, no difference still mojoless

can’t you go back to previous update?  

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Alley Cat posted:

French Rooster posted:

do a factory reset and normally i will be better....some members pointed that in the thread” 4.6 update and upgrade sound quality?”. They were not pleased with the update but after the factory reset they were pleased....

Forgot to mention - did that with 2.3.1 and no improvement.  Same with current firmware.

Down the same straight after the update, no difference still mojoless

can’t you go back to previous update?  

No, apparently not possible on Atom/Nova/Star. 

Reading this thread has re-enforced my thoughts that the 2.6 update to my Atom has resulted in a less dynamic sound. Point being I couldn't listen to my system at volumes greater than 60% due to base distortion, now at 60% the distortion is gone. but everything sounds dull and tiresome.  I also notice the Atom is not as loud at volumes I used to listen at. Factory reset has been done without any noticeable improvement.

The Mu-So updates to my 2 Mu-So went well and don't seem to have affected or changed my listening experience.

kevin J Carden posted:

Nick Lees posted:

It’s an issue worthy of debate.

We buy our gear to suit our ears, our tastes, the rest of the system  and our rooms. Usually after a home demo to ensure all fits sonically (albeit with minor tweaks, such as speaker placement etc.)

To then find a key source has a different sonic signature is a tricky thing. We have to trust Naim’s judgement, but they don’t have access to our ears/room/kit. Though the Beta Test system is a pretty good way of experiencing a broad(ish) set of circumstances.

My experiences of the different firmware sonics for both NDX and Star have been completely positive, but I can understand others may be dismayed if a delicate balancing act has been knocked awry.

Perfectly put Nick. Whether or not Naim’s decision to alter the sound on our behalf is correct (and I’m 110% sure that they sincerely believe it’s an improvement) I find it bizarre that they would risk upsetting users who (lets be honest, and I certainly include myself) pride themselves on having carefully and painstakingly assembled and fine tuned their systems down to choice of NAS drive, Network switch and Ethernet cables based on how their streamer sounds with 4.4 FW. Some will think 4.6 an improvement, but the fact is that the sound is now different at source.  Randomly risking upsetting your greatest asset - an almost irrationally trusting user base - is a very odd business model as I see it. 

I don't think this change in SQ is a case of a random decision by Naim. As a beta tester I saw many of the many twists and turns on this one and the main driver was that they needed to make changes to the code to improve Tidal drop outs, to include new software adopted unilaterally by Spotify, to improve discovery and to allow multiroom with the new Uniti products. Making those changes affected SQ and they had to make changes to the DSPs to get the SQ back where it should be again. Of course in changing the DSP code on a per model basis, they made it as good as they could and mostly that is what people are seeing. So not a random decision....

best

David

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

Mike-B posted:

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

A very arrogant and dismissive repeat comment. I guess Naim throws you wannabe guys a beta and you act like you develop and run the company.

Some like and some do not the firmware, if your ego cannot handle people disagreeing then I doubt you should be beta testers.

I think it’s important to keep things in perspective and not to start having a go at each other. The situation is as David explained above - the functionality changes and so the sound changes. The DSP is then tweaked to get the best sonic result. It’s all subjective and there is no right answer. All we as Beta testers can do is our best, and give Naim our honest opinions. 

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Alley Cat posted:

French Rooster posted:

do a factory reset and normally i will be better....some members pointed that in the thread” 4.6 update and upgrade sound quality?”. They were not pleased with the update but after the factory reset they were pleased....

Forgot to mention - did that with 2.3.1 and no improvement.  Same with current firmware.

Down the same straight after the update, no difference still mojoless

can’t you go back to previous update?  

i did. no problem...so far.

Obsydian posted:

Mike-B posted:

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

A very arrogant and dismissive repeat comment. I guess Naim throws you wannabe guys a beta and you act like you develop and run the company.

Some like and some do not the firmware, if your ego cannot handle people disagreeing then I doubt you should be beta testers.

If you don't like the V4.6, you don't have to use it; revert it to an earlier version - it's that simple.

David & Mike,

Thank you for taking the time to write and explain the amount of effort that goes into testing and reviewing new firmware releases.

There seem to be some postings at cross purposes here.

The title of this thread relates to the SQ of the version 4.6 firmware update for legacy uniti and classic N series streamers and streamer/preamps. However, many of the critical comments relate to the update to the new uniti and muso series of products.

These updates are different both in terms of what they were designed to achieve (both introduced functionality improvements but only the legacy products update was intentionally designed to provide enhanced SQ) and the method of applying the updates i.e. over the air as opposed to via computer.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to start a separate thread to discuss the pros and cons of the muso/new uniti range update to avoid any misunderstandings.

 posted:

There seem to be some postings at cross purposes here.

The title of this thread relates to the SQ of the version 4.6 firmware update for legacy uniti and classic N series streamers and streamer/preamps. However, many of the critical comments relate to the update to the new uniti and muso series of products.

These updates are different both in terms of what they were designed to achieve (both introduced functionality improvements but only the legacy products update was intentionally designed to provide enhanced SQ) and the method of applying the updates i.e. over the air as opposed to via computer.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to start a separate thread to discuss the pros and cons of the muso/new uniti range update to avoid any misunderstandings.

Correct we should I think everyone just started chiming in about the 'new firmwares' and forgot the thread title - we did have a thread when 2.3.1 came out a couple of weeks ago as sound became lifeless and dull for a few of us.

The release of software which had clearly gone through a long beta process barely a fortnight later struck me as odd - as though there were two release candidates for the newer Uniti devices almost being developed separately.

What we're stuck with is not knowing really if the DSP has been radically altered across the range of new/old devices, nor whether or not this is a generic change or tailored for each device as would seem likely given the positive comments from 272 owners.

Mike-B posted:

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

Mike, while I'm sure input from the beta testers has been incredibly valuable to Naim and other users over the years, the problem for me and some others with the new Unitis is that we've been told there is no way to revert to older firmware, and I was also told that firmware does not alter SQ in any way which is clearly wrong from these discussions.

So with the older/legacy devices  you have a way to revert if you don't like the update, newer users don't have this luxury unless the method is not being publicised to non-beta testers.

I would happily forgo multiroom and tweaks for streaming services I currently don't even use to get my Nova back to the state it was prior to 2.3.1.

Alley Cat posted:

Mike-B posted:

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

Mike, while I'm sure input from the beta testers has been incredibly valuable to Naim and other users over the years, the problem for me and some others with the new Unitis is that we've been told there is no way to revert to older firmware, and I was also told that firmware does not alter SQ in any way which is clearly wrong from these discussions.

So with the older/legacy devices  you have a way to revert if you don't like the update, newer users don't have this luxury unless the method is not being publicised to non-beta testers.

I would happily forgo multiroom and tweaks for streaming services I currently don't even use to get my Nova back to the state it was prior to 2.3.1.

If you really want to revert to an earlier version, I guess you would have to ask Naim directly if they can arrange it for you. Those of us who have saved older versions of the firmware for legacy streamers (against Naim's instructions!) have the luxury of doing so because they are downloaded, but I'm not sure how easy it would be for Naim to offer this for 'over-the-air' updates that the new streamers use. There's no harm in asking, I guess.

ChrisSU posted:

Alley Cat posted:

Mike-B posted:

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

Mike, while I'm sure input from the beta testers has been incredibly valuable to Naim and other users over the years, the problem for me and some others with the new Unitis is that we've been told there is no way to revert to older firmware, and I was also told that firmware does not alter SQ in any way which is clearly wrong from these discussions.

So with the older/legacy devices  you have a way to revert if you don't like the update, newer users don't have this luxury unless the method is not being publicised to non-beta testers.

I would happily forgo multiroom and tweaks for streaming services I currently don't even use to get my Nova back to the state it was prior to 2.3.1.

If you really want to revert to an earlier version, I guess you would have to ask Naim directly if they can arrange it for you. Those of us who have saved older versions of the firmware for legacy streamers (against Naim's instructions!) have the luxury of doing so because they are downloaded, but I'm not sure how easy it would be for Naim to offer this for 'over-the-air' updates that the new streamers use. There's no harm in asking, I guess.

Naim support told me there was no way to revert - I'm not sure I believe this as I'd imagine there may be a way to update/change firmware over USB even if it meant a few workarounds.

I'd also add that almost enforced updates with no way of reverting is on of the major things that irritates me with Apple.  It's annoying enough with phones when some features you like are deprecated or prevent older apps from working, but here we're talking about a change which affects the fundamental function of the device - quality audio output - if this changes signficiantly in software updates I don't think any company that prides itself on making a premium product can be so naïve as to think the customer won't be disgruntled if they feel SQ has got much worse and they have no way to revert the firmware.

I am about to update my NAC-N172 to the new 4.6. I have not installed the 4.4 update yet, (the 172 is 3 1/2 years old), so given the comments regarding this will do the 4.4 and then the 4.6....

I have the luxury of saving the firmware updates on my laptop, so if all else fails then I have an out. But my gut tells me all will be well.

To be honest I hadn't considered that thete would be a sonic change but thinking about it after reading the observations on the forum it's obvious there could be.

We get hung up on sonic "truth" and all the while the products we use are tailored to give a particular "voice". DSP gives us all sorts of possibilities,  and why shouldn't manufacturers take advantage of them.

I have been a Naim owner off and on for over 40 years, (Methuselar they call me), and rarely have I been lead astray. So come Friday night...

Alley Cat posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Alley Cat posted:

Mike-B posted:

Well said David,  thank you.   And for the naysayers & doubters,  thats exactly like it was,  this was far from random.     Also we should all remember we have gone though a number off f/w revisions over the last few years & sonic changes happened with those to some extent.    

Mike, while I'm sure input from the beta testers has been incredibly valuable to Naim and other users over the years, the problem for me and some others with the new Unitis is that we've been told there is no way to revert to older firmware, and I was also told that firmware does not alter SQ in any way which is clearly wrong from these discussions.

So with the older/legacy devices  you have a way to revert if you don't like the update, newer users don't have this luxury unless the method is not being publicised to non-beta testers.

I would happily forgo multiroom and tweaks for streaming services I currently don't even use to get my Nova back to the state it was prior to 2.3.1.

If you really want to revert to an earlier version, I guess you would have to ask Naim directly if they can arrange it for you. Those of us who have saved older versions of the firmware for legacy streamers (against Naim's instructions!) have the luxury of doing so because they are downloaded, but I'm not sure how easy it would be for Naim to offer this for 'over-the-air' updates that the new streamers use. There's no harm in asking, I guess.

Naim support told me there was no way to revert - I'm not sure I believe this as I'd imagine there may be a way to update/change firmware over USB even if it meant a few workarounds.

I dare say it would be technically possible, although I'm not sure that USB would be an option in the way that it is implemented in Naim streamers. I can't imagine how they would present the options to 'normal' people who don't obsess over these things - never mind how they would cope with the howls of ridicule that the bits-are-bits brigade would no doubt make.