Naim and Harbeth speakers?

I know my dealer was not a big fan of the sf venere spkrs. but I never listened to them so I can't compare them.I took a blind (deaf?) gamble on harbeth 30.1 as I have difficulty getting about. The person I bought them from was somewhat local and delivered and set them up (they are used). I've been very happy with them,I think some ppl. do describe them as "slow" but I don't understand what they mean. I think with truly complex music,perhaps not the best choice,but for more typical jazz/rock/folk ,they are wonderful. I would certainly recommend a good listen to for yourself. Bass is fairly well defined,the mid and treble are very easy to listen to long-term with no fatigue. Btw. I was able to save a bit on stands by using two folding iron book racks from the container store - right height +/- a smidgen,and they sound good (never compared to proper stands however). 

You might have a problem with point .3

Harbeth and speed are not usually associated together. Have you thought of ProAc ? D20R or D30 ?

Another choice to which you should perhaps listen is the ATC SCM19 - very accurate and neutral.

However the main things with speakers are
1  Matching to your listening preferences
2  Matching to your room acoustics

As there are so many design variations and engineering compromises in speakers, the first can only be determined by listening to the speakers in question.
The second can only really be determined by listening to them in place in your room (i.e. a home demo).

......You may want to take a look at a pair of ProAc Response D2's. I found them to be quite nice with my NAIT XS 2 and I am sure they would have sounded even better with my SN2.

Good luck with your search and decision.

Harbeth is as slow as they make them. Awful speaker with Naim if you ask me.

Kudos 10 is a great match though. 

//Jonas

crackie posted:

You might have a problem with point .3

Harbeth and speed are not usually associated together. Have you thought of ProAc ? D20R or D30 ?

 

I have researched the Proacs in my speaker upgrade project. The D20R and D30 look interesting. I prefer 2 way stand mounts, but I am also looking at a few smallish floor standers. Especially floor standers that are front ported and are not too fussy about the room.

There is only one Proac dealer in my area. Unfortunately, he does not keep Proacs in store for demo purposes on a consistent basis. The dealer found an American speaker brand that is as good, and even outperforms them and are less expensive. 

Huge posted:

Another choice to which you should perhaps listen is the ATC SCM19 - very accurate and neutral.

However the main things with speakers are
1  Matching to your listening preferences
2  Matching to your room acoustics

As there are so many design variations and engineering compromises in speakers, the first can only be determined by listening to the speakers in question.
The second can only really be determined by listening to them in place in your room (i.e. a home demo).

I was very eager to hear the ATC SCM 19. But, in two reviews, the reviewer pointed out they don't perform well at low volumes. I listen to music a lot in the late evening, so this is very much a deal breaker for me. One of the things that got me interested in Harbeth, is their reputation to sound very good at low volumes. 

seakayaker posted:

......You may want to take a look at a pair of ProAc Response D2's. I found them to be quite nice with my NAIT XS 2 and I am sure they would have sounded even better with my SN2.

Good luck with your search and decision.

The Proac D2s seem promising. I mentioned a few posts up that my dealer sells American speakers that outperform the Proacs for less money. The specific example he gave me, was the Proac D2 VS the American speaker. The American speaker is the Ryan R610. All of the salesman in the store preferred the Ryan. 

I never heard the Proac D2. But, I spent almost an hour listening to the Ryan R610 with different kinds of music. It was awesome! The Ryan R610 retails for the same price as my Venere 2. They are noticeably better. They are crystal clear, detailed and slam hard and fast without ever being harsh or fatiguing. They do perform much better than their price. 

Why not buy the Ryan R610? Well, my budget allows me to go higher. Also, Ryan will be releasing a new stand mount in a series above the R610. It may turn out to be the perfect speaker for me. 

I am still doing my research though, because I want to get this right. What I like about the Harbeths (from reading reviews, not actual experience with them) is they play well at low volumes, are great at rendering vocals/voices, and have a wonderful midrange. Speaker esthetics are also important to me. I am in love with the Harbeth rosewood finish! I think that despite the qualities of Harbeth, the lack of speed will eliminate them from contention.

For information purposes, here are the other speakers I have on my list. They are in my budget, and through reviews, they seem to be speakers I could enjoy. I have not heard any of them yet.

-B&W 805 D3 (maybe the 804 D3 also);

-Spendor D7;

-Focal Sopra 1;

-Totem Tribe Tower;

-Sonus Faber Olympica 1. 

All of those speakers I can demo in store, except for the SF Olympica 1. There are no Kudos, PMC or Neat dealers in my area, so a demo is not possible. 

I'll jump on the bandwagon. Harbeths not fast speakers to my ears, at least for rock listening. Kudos and ProAcs generally pair great with the SN2 for speedy rock/pop listening. ATC SCM 19 - fast and accurate, but with a dryer presentation and leaner bass than ProAcs or Kudos. But it's all about your own expectations and how a speaker fits your room.

joerand posted:

I'll jump on the bandwagon. Harbeths not fast speakers to my ears, at least for rock listening. Kudos and ProAcs generally pair great with the SN2 for speedy rock/pop listening. ATC SCM 19 - fast and accurate, but with a dryer presentation and leaner bass than ProAcs or Kudos. But it's all about your own expectations and how a speaker fits your room.

A few people have commented that the Harbeths cannot rock. I don't understand how some people can say they are great for jazz if they can't rock. Sure, maybe smooth jazz. But, some jazz really rocks and swings. 

For example, I love the tunes "Fair weather" and "Hotel 49" On Chet Baker's "In New York". These jazz tunes rock and swing as much as most rock tunes. I would not want to hear this music in a slow and polite fashion. 

This picture makes me laugh, but I agree with Yoda!

Daniel H. posted:

A few people have commented that the Harbeths cannot rock. I don't understand how some people can say they are great for jazz if they can't rock. Sure, maybe smooth jazz. But, some jazz really rocks and swings. 

For example, I love the tunes "Fair weather" and "Hotel 49" On Chet Baker's "In New York". These jazz tunes rock and swing as much as most rock tunes. I would not want to hear this music in a slow and polite fashion. 

I've had speakers home that present folk and acoustic music very well, with great "accuracy" on vocals and timbre of strings. Play a well recorded heavy rock album and those speakers can start showing their shortcomings, sounding congested or sluggish with some rough edges. Granted, the room plays a role.

Jonas Olofsson posted:

Harbeth is as slow as they make them. Awful speaker with Naim if you ask me.

Kudos 10 is a great match though. 

//Jonas

 

Fully agree...imho the most boring speaker in the world. There are many good choices out there... my dealer drops Harbeth because no one bought it after comparing with other brands like Focal, B&W, Kudos, Neat. You may add Proac, Boenicke, Devore on you must audit list! 

If you do a search through this forum you'll find several posts with folks talking about their Harbeths - and how they're great with Naim. 

With the SN2, you'd want to do the Compact C7s. These speakers will grow on you if you give them a chance. Midrange to die for. There is midrange detail that even the Kudos Super 20s can't match. There's layers and layers of midrange. 

The first hour or so, coming from Kudos they'll sound slow - but then you'll know what they're doing - I know folks who can afford the 20K Wilson audios - and they still run the C7s. I'd take that speaker over the 30.1s - they're a lot more fun. Not as much top end detail though.

After a thorough search ( with took me 2 years) I decided fot Harbeth spealers. Silky  and organic sound. The best around. And not rocking? Nonsense.

I just switched from Dynaudio special 40s to Sopra 1s with 272/Xps/250 DR...they tick all your boxes,and I really think they are overlooked here...highly recommended.

Daniel,

my simple opinion. I have listened, more than once and accurately, to all of the Harbeth range. I have also wanted for some time to like them enough to buy some. In my experience, what I can tell you is summed up in two points:

Point one – the Harbeth M30.1 is the only speaker I know that has made any amp connected to it sound good. I have, in fact, twice bought small amps I didn't need because of how good they sounded with M30.1s. If this is a plus or a minus, it's up to you and can be ascertained with an audition. The M30.1, btw, can do deep bass with a capable amp and deep bass in the music material.

Point two – they are the cutest in the range, have the best proportions, and a very classical look. Taste is taste, so you won't read from me judgments, but only impressions. If you are tempted by Harbeth, I only suggest the M30.1 Possibly on Tonträger stands: expensive, but perfect. And please, bring all the hype from the 80s about heavy iron stands to the dump.

Best

Max

I've heard 30.1, the best of the bunch imo, just not exactly the mids of the nice P3esr

The SHL were bloated and slow, clearly couldn't follow a tune

M40 was a distaster, boomy bas and mega-soft, way way overpriced

Personally I would much rather look into the Graham and Sterling  camp, they create some wonderfull speakers

It cries for a home-dem before you decide

Oh, and perhaps get the new 5xmk2 streamer or a psu for the current, perhaps get a s/h NDX, the market will provide good prices on these now when the mk2 arrive

You need second hand nSats. They are fast, don't go too deep but the bass is precise. Tweeter is smooth, I think because they were designed for av purposes and need to handle compressed music.

It will save you a lot of money which you can use for an nDac or a ps on your source.

I loved my P3 ESRs. They had stunning midrange and they could rock when required.

However, when I auditioned new speakers, comparison with my Martin Logans made Harbeth 30.1s sound boxy and slow. I didn’t expect that of Harbeths, but I wasn’t alone at the extended audition session in my view.

So it all depends what you’re comparing them with... Harbeth and Naim is a tried and trusted pairing, but there may be combinations which better suit your ears.

Similar experience here. Had the P3 ESR and had the feeling that they were not transmitting the full dynamic range of the music (in my room and system). Had some dealer demo - P3, M30.1 vs some models from pmc, spendor, b&w and focal. Feeling was confirmed and ended up with the Sopra 1. Very large difference by the way between the sopra 1and the m30.1 in the dealer demo room. 

It's going to be a question of taste, home demo, I'm biased with Graham Audio LS 5/9.

Fast? Get a copy of Black Uhuru "Anthem", try the bass on Botanical Roots

I find it funny that so many ppl. are already suggesting other speakers. Their are always speakers that will do one thing or another in a better way. You said that you could audition the speakers, I would recommend that you do and then decide if they work for you.

Daniel H. posted:

 The dealer found an American speaker brand that is as good, and even outperforms them and are less expensive. 

Highly subjective, and highly doubtful! Probably a case of higher profit margin than anything else.

While not completely on topic. I don't quite understand why many people prefer stand mount speakers over floor standers, am I missing something?

It cant be size because they generally take up similar space with stands. You must be giving up some bass response on the average.

Is it simply the cost?