Naim and Harbeth speakers?

To curb the excessive bass output from most floorstanding speakers.

The laws of physics dictate that those of us who have smaller rooms of simple rectangular form with rigid walls have to use main speakers with lower bass output or accept a degree of bass boom.  In my case the resonance is +12dB @ 39 to 42Hz (with the bass traps in place), my speakers (the way I use them) are approximately -9dB @ 42Hz.

I choose the former approach and then use a DSP controlled sub to provide the bass.

Thanks for the explanations

I have an SN2/HCDR and Harbeth 30.1s. I augment them with two JL Audio Fathom F110 subs. I have an ND5-XS streamer, but I output that to either a Chord Hugo or to my Naim nDAC. I listen to everything under the sun from world vocals to speed metal and hip hop. I play anything and everything through this setup.

I would answer your questions as follows:

1) No. I think the bass is very good actually, but I think I know what you mean and I would say these may not suit you. If you are looking for hard hitting, visceral bass, these don't do that, at least not with this level of amplification. I do suspect though that with a Naim pre/power high in the Naim pecking order you may find that these will slam just fine, but this isn't a characteristic of them in my opinion.

2) Yes. The treble is refined, some may say the treble is recessed. I would say it is in its proper place in the overall presentation. There is a lot of resolution here, more than you will find with your ND5-XS. I realized that first when I added a DAC to my ND5-XS and again when I added my HiCap Dr and yet again when I put a power line on the HCDR. These actually have excellent treble that seems to be limited only by the quality of my source, but it isn't highlighted with a hot "presence region" and so on. It is just there. Rather natural in my opinion. If you like stinging cymbal hits, this isn't the speaker for it.

3) No. As with number 1, I think I know what you mean and I would therefore say no. I don't find these slow at all. I find them as fast as the dynamics of the source allows, following blistering drum kits just fine, but they don't accentuate transients in the manner that I suspect you prefer.

Two suggestions not yet mentioned that may suit your taste if you can find them for demo would be Wilson Sabrinas or Klipsch Forte IIIs. I found those to have some slam and jump factor in midsize rooms without excessive treble irritation.

I would audition the Harbeths also. You may find them surprising. The internet generalizations you'll find out there are well represented in this thread, so no need for any more online research. Find some and give them a listen with your music at varying volumes. Give it a long demo. These don't impress initially, they impress over time.

If it helps at all, my thoughts on my 30.1 setup would be as follows:

I've now had this setup for four years. That's longer than I've ever had any pair of speakers.

I can play music at levels that peak at 90dB and when I leave the room my ears are not ringing. I can listen to these for hours. That right there tells me there is nothing really accentuated in the frequency response in my room that grates over time. Every day I look forward to listening to music on this setup.

I don't find them "smooth" or "laid back", but they aren't necessarily "hard hitting" either. I put them at the warmer side of neutral and transparent enough to create a nice sense of three dimensionality in my room. There's a natural sounding clarity to them, but nothing analytical.

I don't really think they do anything that I would call "perfect" for my taste, except maybe the midrange, but across all the genres of music I play, at all the varying resolution and volume levels, and across all my varying moods, they simply play music well. Most of the time I find myself simply listening to the music with toes tapping. I suspect that if I try to find a smidge more slam for rock or beats in the chest or sting in a cymbal strike, that it will also come with a hotter upper midrange or some other presentation difference that will not appeal, so I'm reluctant to get back on the merry-go-round.

Max's comment about sounding good with any amp is true. They are cannily tuned. These will play music well with almost anything, but if you improve sources and electronics, they get better and better. I also suspect that if you follow Alan Shaw's instructions and put a good amount of power up them, they turn into something else entirely.

Every change in the quality of the source side of things, from adding a DAC, to adding the hicap and putting power lines on the components, have improved the sound. I suspect these speakers can scale well with equipment upgrades and I'm probably not even close to tapping their full potential.

This setup actually rocks just fine and has all the speed that's in the dynamics of the recording. When I listen to speed metal tracks I simply don't find myself thinking they are slow, but transients aren't necessarily hard hitting or visceral either. These can rock my 12x17 foot room hard, but they aren't hitting me in the chest. I think that is because they use lively cabinets, so they radiate sound outward in every direction and not just forward. Because of this, they are very interactive with boundaries, particularly the side walls. Put them closer to the side walls and the bass is accentuated and can sound boomy. Move them away from side walls and the bass becomes tighter and more articulate. If you demo them, make sure it is in a room where they are not close to side walls or in line with other speakers on display that will act as side walls. If they are, they will probably sound boomy or muddy. They are meant to be placed out into the room a bit so sound can propagate in all directions. In my room they are 5 feet from the front wall, 8 feet apart (2 feet from each side wall) and I sit a little more than 8 feet away. You can plop them down anywhere and make music, but siting them pays dividends.

Sorry for the bloviating reply, I just figured I should elaborate some because my setup is very close to yours.

It sounds like you got some demoing to do man!

Good luck with the search. Respond back with some updates! I like hearing the thoughts of others on speakers and different combinations. It can lead to combos you never considered.

Thanks everyone for the valuable information and advice. It sounds like the Harbeth M 30.1 is most likely not the speaker for me. Nonetheless, I will probably do my due diligence, and listen to it at a dealer just to be sure. 

joerand posted:

I'll jump on the bandwagon. Harbeths not fast speakers to my ears, at least for rock listening. Kudos and ProAcs generally pair great with the SN2 for speedy rock/pop listening. ATC SCM 19 - fast and accurate, but with a dryer presentation and leaner bass than ProAcs or Kudos. But it's all about your own expectations and how a speaker fits your room.

Joe, I see in your profile that you have Ryan R620 speakers. I would guess you like how they pair with Naim amplification.

I mentioned in an earlier post I demoed the R610 and it was great. Ryan just released the S840 tower speaker. The S series is even better than the R series. Ryan was planning on introducing the stand mount version of the S series this weekend at Axpona. I have my eyes and ears on this speaker. 

No quarter posted:

I just switched from Dynaudio special 40s to Sopra 1s with 272/Xps/250 DR...they tick all your boxes,and I really think they are overlooked here...highly recommended.

The Sopra 1s are on my list. My dealer says Focals are not bright anymore (even though they still carry that reputation among some people). But, he says they have a somewhat forward sounding midrange, that may not appeal to everyone. I actually don't mind a bit of extra presence, as long as It doesn't feel like the singer is in my face. 

Hi Daniel

yes I think Focals have a reputation of leaning towards bright sounding,but I can assure you the Sopra 1s are not.I have owned many Dynaudio speakers(still do),which are soft dome tweeters,and the Sopra 1s are no brighter than the Dyns,give them a try,I think they will be just what you are after.

Daniel H. posted:

Huge posted:

Another choice to which you should perhaps listen is the ATC SCM19 - very accurate and neutral.

However the main things with speakers are
1  Matching to your listening preferences
2  Matching to your room acoustics

As there are so many design variations and engineering compromises in speakers, the first can only be determined by listening to the speakers in question.
The second can only really be determined by listening to them in place in your room (i.e. a home demo).

I was very eager to hear the ATC SCM 19. But, in two reviews, the reviewer pointed out they don't perform well at low volumes. I listen to music a lot in the late evening, so this is very much a deal breaker for me. One of the things that got me interested in Harbeth, is their reputation to sound very good at low volumes. 

i went some days ago at a dealer shop in Paris to hear the atc 19 active speakers, with a high quality source and 7k preamp from bryston:  i really don’t understand why some members like these speakers. The sound was 2 dimensional, not refined, very linear, too clean .  The dealer replaced them after by sonus faber olympica standmount:  the magic returned!

I you like sonus faber sound, don’t go to atc.   Just my opinion.    More proac if you can hear some, or better sonus faber....

jsaudio posted:

While not completely on topic. I don't quite understand why many people prefer stand mount speakers over floor standers, am I missing something?

It cant be size because they generally take up similar space with stands. You must be giving up some bass response on the average.

Is it simply the cost?

 

the size of the room i guess.....

French Rooster posted:

Daniel H. posted:

Huge posted:

Another choice to which you should perhaps listen is the ATC SCM19 - very accurate and neutral.

However the main things with speakers are
1  Matching to your listening preferences
2  Matching to your room acoustics

As there are so many design variations and engineering compromises in speakers, the first can only be determined by listening to the speakers in question.
The second can only really be determined by listening to them in place in your room (i.e. a home demo).

I was very eager to hear the ATC SCM 19. But, in two reviews, the reviewer pointed out they don't perform well at low volumes. I listen to music a lot in the late evening, so this is very much a deal breaker for me. One of the things that got me interested in Harbeth, is their reputation to sound very good at low volumes. 

i went some days ago at a dealer shop in Paris to hear the atc 19 active speakers, with a high quality source and 7k preamp from bryston:  i really don’t understand why some members like these speakers. The sound was 2 dimensional, not refined, very linear, too clean .  The dealer replaced them after by sonus faber olympica standmount:  the magic returned!

I you like sonus faber sound, don’t go to atc.   Just my opinion.    More proac if you can hear some, or better sonus faber....

FWIW ----  I listened to the ATC SCM19's for about 1 hour a couple of months ago alternating between a SN2 & 272/250DR & thought the speakers were outstanding. Not a long demo and not at my house but if the time comes to replace my Ovator S-400's they would be something I would be considering.

The great part is there is no bad choice if it is what you like when your listening. Choices are fantastic........

seakayaker posted:

French Rooster posted:

Daniel H. posted:

Huge posted:

Another choice to which you should perhaps listen is the ATC SCM19 - very accurate and neutral.

However the main things with speakers are
1  Matching to your listening preferences
2  Matching to your room acoustics

As there are so many design variations and engineering compromises in speakers, the first can only be determined by listening to the speakers in question.
The second can only really be determined by listening to them in place in your room (i.e. a home demo).

I was very eager to hear the ATC SCM 19. But, in two reviews, the reviewer pointed out they don't perform well at low volumes. I listen to music a lot in the late evening, so this is very much a deal breaker for me. One of the things that got me interested in Harbeth, is their reputation to sound very good at low volumes. 

i went some days ago at a dealer shop in Paris to hear the atc 19 active speakers, with a high quality source and 7k preamp from bryston:  i really don’t understand why some members like these speakers. The sound was 2 dimensional, not refined, very linear, too clean .  The dealer replaced them after by sonus faber olympica standmount:  the magic returned!

I you like sonus faber sound, don’t go to atc.   Just my opinion.    More proac if you can hear some, or better sonus faber....

FWIW ----  I listened to the ATC SCM19's for about 1 hour a couple of months ago alternating between a SN2 & 272/250DR & thought the speakers were outstanding. Not a long demo and not at my house but if the time comes to replace my Ovator S-400's they would be something I would be considering.

The great part is there is no bad choice if it is what you like when your listening. Choices are fantastic........

all tastes are possible....but atc sound is not my cup of tea.  But i agree that the sound was clear and transparent and fast, but too lean and anemic.  Sonus faber is the extreme opposite, proac in the middle.    Some find sonus faber a bit soft: i heard the olympica with ear yoshino v12 integrated: fast, alive, with super prat but also body of instruments, articulated bass and wonderful tones.   

Perhaps the atc passive with naim amps are more refined and colorful....i don’t know.  

T38.45 posted:

Jonas Olofsson posted:

Harbeth is as slow as they make them. Awful speaker with Naim if you ask me.

Kudos 10 is a great match though. 

//Jonas

 

Fully agree...imho the most boring speaker in the world. There are many good choices out there... my dealer drops Harbeth because no one bought it after comparing with other brands like Focal, B&W, Kudos, Neat. You may add Proac, Boenicke, Devore on you must audit list! 

 

If the Harbeth was compared with other brands such as Focal, B&W, Neat or other forward speakers, the Harbeth will appear dull as first listening impressions with the latter speakers will be more impressive ie. more detail, more forward and excitement. But it's the long-term impression at home is what that matters. There are some owners who ditched their high-end speakers costing 7 to 8 times more for the Harbeth speakers. It depends on what the listener is looking for in the selection of loudspeakers.

My experience is almost the same as French Rooster above, though not with the ATC SCM19. I listened to the SCM40 many years ago in a hifi show, though it's not the latest V2 version. The sound is too analytical, lean and clean with razor-sharp detail. I walked out from the room in less than 5 minutes.

Daniel H. posted:

Joe, I see in your profile that you have Ryan R620 speakers. I would guess you like how they pair with Naim amplification.

I mentioned in an earlier post I demoed the R610 and it was great. Ryan just released the S840 tower speaker. The S series is even better than the R series. Ryan was planning on introducing the stand mount version of the S series this weekend at Axpona. I have my eyes and ears on this speaker. 

Daniel, I'm still in the honeymoon phase with my Ryans. Plunked them down in my room early December and haven't moved them an inch since. Still using them with the standard link bars. Five months later I haven't had an inclination to touch them. I'm again enjoying music the way I did in my teens - everything I play sounds wonderful and engaging, CDs and vinyl.

BTW - I'm using the Ryans with a Plinius Hautonga 200 watt integrated. At 4 ohms the 620s demand some headroom. The dealer I bought them from demos them with a Krell Vangard integrated, also 200 watts, and thinks that's the power needed to get the 620s performing best. I haven't seen news of the S series so thanks for the heads up. I've got a year to upgrade my Ryans with full value trade-in from the dealer. So far, doesn't seem that's likely to happen.

This is the first I've discussed Ryan speakers here. They are a rather obscure manufacturer, even in the US, more so in Europe. Plus, most folks on this forum with higher powered amps are probably looking beyond $3,500 made in USA speakers. I'm more than happy to discuss further via PM so feel free to contact me.

Agreed entirely with comments from Clemenza / Ryder as I actually own a pair of the Harbeth 40.2 speakers, I know exactly what you guys mean here - What I really want is a true musical reproduction, and I am not looking for some HIFI attributes such as bass in the chest or highly transient treble, although they are all there.

Mind you, I am fortunate in a sense that my music room is slightly bigger than a typical middle sized room in the US and I am in a good position to keep the Harbeth 40.2 well away from the walls since they like empty space around them.

I have been using Harbeth shl5 for 5 years and electronics are now sn2/hicap dr/ndac/awaiting for ndx2. Very lovely midrange. But speed and tight bass and holographic presentation is not it’s forte. Just sold off the harbeth. I am now looking for new speakers. 

If you ask me, I don’t think naim and harbeth is marriage made in heaven. Naim can hold back harbeth beautiful mids. Harbeth can hold back naim’s prat. Choose your poison. 

Good stuff from kaydee6. Agree or disagree, that's a useful, balanced and objective response from one having direct, long-term experience with Naim and Harbeth. IME the SN2/HCDR delivers as much speed and tight bass as a circa $6K class A/B integrated has to offer (in fairness add another $2K for the HCDR).

I may be a little out of order here, but to me the subject is easy to answer. Harbeth are not for Naim.

• The designer cum owner of Harbeth is well known for his belief that all amplifiers sound the same.
• The design is based on the "flimsy" box being part of the sound. 

We all know that most amplifiers sound different, otherwise, we would not be on this forum. Most speaker manufacturers now go to great pains to reinforce the box and eliminate its part in the picture.

If the fundamental principles of the designer and the Company do not meet our knowledge then I find it difficult to entertain their products. I have not heard Harbeth speakers in any real listening situation, though I have noted that a Melbourne Naim dealer now stocks some models, so perhaps a listen maybe in order when in a few years, I may be contemplating replacing my briks.

The principle of BBC type enclosures is not that the 'flimsy' box is particularly 'part of the sound', but that the walls of the box are less rigid and heavily mass damped so as to have a much lower resonant frequency and to quickly eliminate stored energy rather than sustaining it after the diving note has passed.

This has three beneficial effects, so in comparison to the higher frequency resonance of panels in rigid enclosures...

Firstly our ears are less sensitive at the lower frequencies, so we hear the resulting colouration less strongly.

Secondly it takes the resonant frequency down out of the critical band that humans use for communication and which our brains use to distinguish different sounds reducing the extraneous sound clutter that our brain has to ignore and 'hear through' to get to the music.

Finally the heavily damped, 'lossy' nature of the panels means that when a musical transient starts the panel resonating (as is inevitable with ALL speakers), the panel stops generating sound much more quickly so that the louder resonance from the transient doesn't spoil the quieter part of the note that follows.

Let me add the Totem Sky or PSB Synchrony B to the mix.

I like the looks & concept of large dome tweeter on the Totem Sky.

there are online reviews to help you with.

I wanted to paste a few lines but am not sure if i will violate the forum rules.

IMO - you must consider speakers but after letting the SN2 run for a few months ( approx 400 hours maybe )

Question :-

a. what does the SN2 do that the Nait 5i-2 doesnt ?

PM me if possible and if the discussion goes off track.

 b. reverse question - do you feel you have lost some thing that the Nait 5i-2 does better than the SN2 ?

I think you may need to run the SN2 for about 400 hours to make sure that the SN2 is broken in properly. Thats what i have been reading. ( I am looking to move to SN2 from a Nait 5i-2 myself )

I'm playing the shl5+ at the end of the NDS 552/500 tonight. Sounds wonderful. It'll take a few days to wean myself from the superb Tweeter on the super 20s, but the mid-range detail on the harbeth shl5s is something else. I know I'll miss these when I go back to the super 20s. Unfortunately can't fo fo stand mounters with kids. the shl5s will have to go back to the study at the end of the 272/250. 

MangoMonkey posted:

I'm playing the shl5+ at the end of the NDS 552/500 tonight. Sounds wonderful. It'll take a few days to wean myself from the superb Tweeter on the super 20s, but the mid-range detail on the harbeth shl5s is something else. I know I'll miss these when I go back to the super 20s. Unfortunately can't fo fo stand mounters with kids. the shl5s will have to go back to the study at the end of the 272/250. 

I think shl5 (and all Harbeth) play good with every good amp but they play better with very good amps . I use my pair with 252/300 and it sounds very, very good...

Harbeth SHL5 non-Plus is slow and smeared in the bass and midrange, but not the SHL5 Plus. I've tried at least half a dozen amps with the SHL5 during the first year I've got them before I settled with the Naim NAC202/200 which ameliorated most of the shortcomings. I might have sold the SHL5s much earlier if I had not tried several outstanding amps which I thought sound great with the speakers (LFD and Naim are the top two). All other amps which include the Rega Elicit Mk2 and some of my costlier pre/power combinations failed miserably. So much for Alan Shaw's remark that all amplifiers sound the same, though I think he had changed his stance since. It's the amp that saved the day for me - otherwise I wouldn't be using the SHL5 until now.

Despite the inherent flaws of the SHL5, I lived with the setup for 7 years before the SHL5 made way for the SHL5 Plus. The SHL5 Plus has managed to effectively resolve all the negatives of its predecessor. I knew something was off with the SHL5 but I persevered with the speaker for many years mainly for its lovely organic midrange. The SHL5 Plus took off some of the romantic warmth of the SHL5 and is a more precise, clinical and accurate sounding speaker. Although the improvements with the SHL5 Plus are across the frequency spectrum, the largest improvement is surely in the bass. The bass of the SHL5 Plus sounds a lot cleaner and tighter than the SHL5 non-Plus. The SHL5 non-Plus possesses an excessive bass that's not in the recording and for this reason it doesn't sound very pleasant and is slow and smeared with few music genres.

The SHL5 Plus is clearly a superior speaker in my book, though there are few who preferred the more romantic presentation of the older SHL5s despite its inaccuracies. The SHL5 is a significantly more coloured sounding speaker but it has its own charms (and fans). Yes, I agree that the Naim's strength may not match Harbeth's forte but I like to mix it up that way. The Naim/Harbeth combination may not sound as rich or tube-like in the vocals when compared to a setup that's driven by amps such as the LFD, Croft or other tube designs, but for a more balanced listening the Naim-Harbeth system sounds fine, particularly if pace, rhythm and timing are important considerations for the listener.

mpw posted:

Question :-

a. what does the SN2 do that the Nait 5i-2 doesnt ?

PM me if possible and if the discussion goes off track.

 b. reverse question - do you feel you have lost some thing that the Nait 5i-2 does better than the SN2 ?

I think you may need to run the SN2 for about 400 hours to make sure that the SN2 is broken in properly. Thats what i have been reading. ( I am looking to move to SN2 from a Nait 5i-2 myself )

The SN2 does everything the 5i-2 does and much more. It also does everything better. The soundstage width and depth of the SN2 is better than the 5i. The bass is stronger, and the high frequencies are more detailed while still being smooth. The SN2 has easily as much PRaT and possibly even more. There is just more music. It sounds like there are more layers to the music. 

The SN2 displays nuances and tiny details that are glossed over by the 5i. I now understand what people mean when they say the 5i is a bit grunty sounding. The 5i sounds (in direct comparison to the SN2), like a small amp making a big sound. It makes more sound than many would believe. The SN2, sounds like a big amp. It is incredibly smooth (rather than grunty), but it is still fast and rhythmic with sharp transients. It is as if the SN2 does not compromise speed and rhythm for smoothness. 

Both amps share the attributes of having PRaT and are both very fun to listen to. There definitely is a family resemblance between the two. If you like the 5i, it is highly probable you will love the SN2.

I loved my 5i. I could have easily lived with it for many more years. But, the SN2 is a bigger, stronger, more refined and capable amp. 

Thank you.

The Totem Sky will be a worthwhile audition.

Do look it up.

Hi I have heard the Sonus Faber Venere on a SN - and the combination was not that good .... sounded a bit flat. I would strongly urge a careful dem at a good dealer....to get the best out of SN2.