ATC SCM40 stumbles the SN2?

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

 

 

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong analogue, but doesn't your Chord DAVE have a preamp built in which is extremely capable and transparent?

There is no preamp in a Chord Digital product. There is a digital volume control.

Preamps like those made by Naim do a lot more than changing the volume and inputs.

No quarter posted:

analogmusic posted:

I'm very happy using a Dave with a Naim amplifier.

I'm not at all interested in bringing an ATC monitor used in Studios into my home, but I'll concede they do look nice 

OH yes I do remember now- When I heard the Dynaudio focus XD, which is a superb active speaker with built in preamp and DAC, I knew right there and then this - is what I was looking for (as a speaker)

But the same passive speaker that I ended up purchasing (Focus 260) sounds far more capable when driven by my rig of Dave/282HCDR/250 DR.

 

 

 

With your gear Analog,I would look at auditioning the new Confidence C20...expensive,I know,but it would be one hell of a system.I can’t help but feel the 260s are not letting you hear all that the Dave/282 has to offer.

yes, the king Dave should be honored by better speakers than dynaudio focus 260!  

analogmusic posted:

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

 

 

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong analogue, but doesn't your Chord DAVE have a preamp built in which is extremely capable and transparent?

There is no preamp in a Chord Digital product. There is a digital volume control.

Preamps like those made by Naim do a lot more than changing the volume and inputs.

 

From the Chord web site.

"DAVE is the most advanced DAC we have ever made. It features the very best conversion technology available, using proprietary techniques never seen before, making DAVE the most advanced DAC/preamp amplifier in the world"

"TT is a highly tuned thoroughbred Table Top DAC/Preamp capable of unearthing the most minor nuances and delivering stunning clarity"

Stringerbell posted:

analogmusic posted:

The Confidence C2 is a superb speaker - for the price I think it gives speakers costing twice as much some tough competition. 

The way Dynaudio do active speakers with their Focus XD line though, is very compelling and a much better all in one solution than what ATC do.

analog
what active speakers did you listen to? You mention dynaudio focus xd , but which one ?
dynaudio focus xd is indeed a great integrated solution , but I'm sure you aware that any analog input is digitized. So it makes little sense to use something like Dave with it.
I also found you tried dac-v1 into dynaudio 110A.

yes, I've had the good luck to be able to try Dave into an active PA system with XLR cables, with the top of the line Linn Klimax 350 active speakers (the creme de la creme as far as I'm concerned).....

I don't find active speakers to be that much better - sure the grip on the bass is absolute, but that's really it.  Something the DR amps close the gap with anyway.

well designed passive speakers don't give up anything in sound quality to my ears.

So Dave into Klimax 350 wasn't as good as Dave into Klimax preamp and then the Linn Klimax actives. The music comes to life with the preamp.

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

 

 

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong analogue, but doesn't your Chord DAVE have a preamp built in which is extremely capable and transparent?

There is no preamp in a Chord Digital product. There is a digital volume control.

Preamps like those made by Naim do a lot more than changing the volume and inputs.

 

From the Chord web site.

"DAVE is the most advanced DAC we have ever made. It features the very best conversion technology available, using proprietary techniques never seen before, making DAVE the most advanced DAC/preamp amplifier in the world"

"TT is a highly tuned thoroughbred Table Top DAC/Preamp capable of unearthing the most minor nuances and delivering stunning clarity"

so you believe everything you read, and the preamp in Dave makes a 552 and Naim statement preamp irrelevant?

the problem with you is your level of understanding.

you make comments about the sunshine while not having the understanding of the engineering involved in the products you are trying to make interesting conversation.

analogmusic posted:

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

 

 

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong analogue, but doesn't your Chord DAVE have a preamp built in which is extremely capable and transparent?

There is no preamp in a Chord Digital product. There is a digital volume control.

Preamps like those made by Naim do a lot more than changing the volume and inputs.

 

From the Chord web site.

"DAVE is the most advanced DAC we have ever made. It features the very best conversion technology available, using proprietary techniques never seen before, making DAVE the most advanced DAC/preamp amplifier in the world"

"TT is a highly tuned thoroughbred Table Top DAC/Preamp capable of unearthing the most minor nuances and delivering stunning clarity"

so you believe everything you read, and the preamp in Dave makes a 552 and Naim statement preamp irrelevant?

the problem with you is your level of understanding.

you make comments about the sunshine while not having the understanding of the engineering involved in the products you are trying to make interesting conversation.

 

 

Oh analoguemusic ,  the irony of your response is mind blowing!!!

Did I reply before you edited it again?

analogmusic posted:

Stringerbell posted:

 

yes, I've had the good luck to be able to try Dave into an active PA system with XLR cables, with the top of the line Linn Klimax 350 active speakers (the creme de la creme as far as I'm concerned).....

I don't find active speakers to be that much better - sure the grip on the bass is absolute, but that's really it.  Something the DR amps close the gap with anyway.

well designed passive speakers don't give up anything in sound quality to my ears.

So Dave into Klimax 350 wasn't as good as Dave into Klimax preamp and then the Linn Klimax actives. The music comes to life with the preamp.

But what on earth does that tell you about Dave, or more particularly in the context of this the OP, maybe  SN2’s preamp section, into Active ATC SCM40s?

LOL - anyone with a little knowledge of hi-fi would know the difference between a digital volume control and a real active preamp.

it doesn't say anything at all about Dave. 

There's a digital volume control. Not an analog one.

you have to do the work and hear the difference yourself instead of - like Muttonjef - making banal and ignorant comments.

here's one explanation I like from the townshend allergi preamp review.

In over 50 years of audiophile exploration and music listening, I have never found a passive preamp I could abide at any price. The last one I experimented with was the pricey SMc by Steve McCormick, which was very good, but not really passive, just low gain. Before that, I listened to the Adcom 750 designed by Nelson Pass for Adcom. It had a switch which eliminated all the active circuitry and converted the unit to passive. Unfortunately, the switch also eliminated the highs and most of the impact of the music.

Without buffering the output, the impedance of your source components will probably not be correct to run an amp. In this case, a typical passive line stage will sound muffled and polite. With conventional buffering of resistors/capacitors etc., you lose output rather dramatically. Since you have only a volt or two from the source, any loss is tragic to the music. I would estimate a 25% loss from typical passive setups with conventional circuitry. You cannot achieve full output from most amplifiers or extended frequency response, even, if your impedance is corrupted with conventional passive designs.

Enter Townshend Allegri+. Its use of fractal wire to create the proper impedance, over 800 feet of it in this small unit, gives you perfect impedance, and only reduces the voltage from source components by about 5%, not 25%! Welcome to the 21st Century!

Fractal wire is so cutting edge that JPL Labs in California experimented with it and decided not to pursue it in their own designs, claiming it was too difficult to do. Not Max Townshend in England. He did it and did it right.

Patu posted:

Allan Probin posted:

If we're posting images of active ATC's, would it be ok if I posted a couple of gratuitous images of mine? Please excuse the extreme mongrelness of my system, avert your gaze those of a faint nature.

 

Did you ever compare your 19A with 40? At one point I seriously considered the option of moving from passive 40s to 19A. They’d be enough in my rather small listening room. How to replace nDAC + SN2 and reach the same level of sq without paying a fortune is my biggest concern in this move. I’m afraid active 40s are slightly out of my reach. 

No, unfortunately not. Just passive 19 vs passive 40.

Thoughts on that comparison described here: https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...82#75342530637880182

analogmusic posted:

so you believe everything you read, and the preamp in Dave makes a 552 and Naim statement preamp irrelevant?

the problem with you is your level of understanding.

you make comments about the sunshine while not having the understanding of the engineering involved in the products you are trying to make interesting conversation.

 

 

Oddly, from your own constant citing of Rob Watts, people might be forgiven for thinking you believe everything you read...

so, a preamp can match impedances, beneficial where they are not, and ensure adequate drive, beneficial when there is not, and filter out unwanted ultra- and infra-sonic frequencies, also possibly beneficial if the source doesn’t. I’m not ckear that in any of these ways Dave other than very suited to drive a large number of power amps, likely including ATC ones, and in terms of specs also Naim ones, except I have heard it suggested that Naim power amps may be designed to balance out Naim preamps, so possibly not with Naim power amps.

A preamp can also take away clarity, or adversely affect transient response, etc., and add colouration, which are negative effects that don’t happen if Dave feeds a power amp directly - so maybe into Active ATCs it performs unadulterated.

analogmusic posted:

it doesn't say anything at all about Dave. 

There's a digital volume control. Not an analog one.

you have to do the work and hear the difference yourself instead of - like Muttonjef - making banal and ignorant comments.

here's one explanation I like from the townshend allergi preamp review.

 

In over 50 years of audiophile exploration and music listening, I have never found a passive preamp I could abide at any price. The last one I experimented with was the pricey SMc by Steve McCormick, which was very good, but not really passive, just low gain. Before that, I listened to the Adcom 750 designed by Nelson Pass for Adcom. It had a switch which eliminated all the active circuitry and converted the unit to passive. Unfortunately, the switch also eliminated the highs and most of the impact of the music.

Without buffering the output, the impedance of your source components will probably not be correct to run an amp. In this case, a typical passive line stage will sound muffled and polite. With conventional buffering of resistors/capacitors etc., you lose output rather dramatically. Since you have only a volt or two from the source, any loss is tragic to the music. I would estimate a 25% loss from typical passive setups with conventional circuitry. You cannot achieve full output from most amplifiers or extended frequency response, even, if your impedance is corrupted with conventional passive designs.

Enter Townshend Allegri+. Its use of fractal wire to create the proper impedance, over 800 feet of it in this small unit, gives you perfect impedance, and only reduces the voltage from source components by about 5%, not 25%! Welcome to the 21st Century!

Fractal wire is so cutting edge that JPL Labs in California experimented with it and decided not to pursue it in their own designs, claiming it was too difficult to do. Not Max Townshend in England. He did it and did it right.

You seem to be equating Dave’s output with a passive volume control, and with no buffering of the output. That is not my understanding at all, and perhaps you should raise it with Mr Watts and get it chapter and verse, and bring his response here.

no many companies can make a good preamp - but Naim do. Probably what they do best.

Anyway Innocent if you like what you hear- that's ok.

I've done lots of tests, and I love what I got at home now - the 282 is an awesome preamp.

No I'm not going to disturb Rob Watts or myself - I'm happy with my system.

No-one has disputed that you like what you have! Nor that you don’t want to hear active ATCs. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think the issue that has triggered contributions covering several pages of this thread may have been that you advised others against bothering listening to active ATCs on the grounds that they can’t sound as good as using a Naim amp, despite your never having heard any ATC stuff. 

Meanwhile your dismissal of Dave apparently as no better than a passive volume control is disputed, and your evidence for that is respectfully awaited should you wish to continue that line of argument. 

Sorry IB you can contact Chord directly.

It seems Rob Watts just posted this

So this is the thread where the action is....

goin active? 

it’s not such a big deal as these guys make it out to be going active 

Naim’s Steve Sells runs a passive system at home and so does our moderator Richard Dane 

Oh and this is from Mike Fremers review of the Nac 552 

But that contradicts what Rob Watts is saying. How do you reconcile the two, other than by saying it’s all about personal choice?

It's very simple for someone to say SM40 are perfectly driven by their amp, having nothing better to compare it against. But the truth is, ATC speakers sound their best with lots of power. If ATC powers their SCM19A with 180W amps, why would anyone assume an 80W 250DR will give the same performance with passive 19s? It will not! Not even a 300DR cant drive passive 19s better than 19A on the end of a 272. Tested this myself. It will give better prat yes, but it will sound more congested that actives.

Moving up to SCM40, there is simply no point in trying to power them with Naim amps. Just buy the active version (powered with 240W) and front them by a 272. Maybe with an XPS on top. Sure, they will play even with 25W integrated amps but they will never sing unless you give them what they need.

Even the tiny Muso Qb is driven by 5 amplifiers, totaling a whooping 300W. Ever wondered why?

It’s easy to reconcile once I did the tests

Besides the 552 and statement preamp are made for what purpose exactly?

But Rob Watts, who you seem to hold in high esteem, says it’s best without a preamp. Is he wrong?

once the signal leaves the Dave ......... 

i didn’t buy a chord amplifier now did I? 

Similarly I hold Steve Sells in the highest regard and love my 282/HCDR/250DR, yet for a digital source my cash went to Chord Dave.

It's taking me quite a bit of time jujst to read this thread. For those doing the typing it must be practically taking over your lives. It's becoming a bit like a soap.

it's made poorer by some people who are being disingenuous