ATC SCM40 stumbles the SN2?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Allan Probin posted:

With my network streamer, the balanced outputs are 2x the voltage of the unbalanced outputs, i.e. 6db higher, meaning the volume control needs turning down by 6db when using the balanced outputs to achieve the same output from the speakers compared to using the unbalanced outputs.

Or, looking at it the other way, if you're using an unbalanced to balanced connection, your source will need to be turned up by 6db compared to using a balanced connection, which could be an advantage with an analogue potentiometer volume control as it keeps the volume setting higher up in the volume control range, helping to avoid channel tracking volume imbalance issues.

I would be careful here... your personal example might be your balanced signal equates to twice the value of your non balanced signal... but that is absolutely not the general case. Typically balanced is the unbalanced signal twice but out of phase with each other, so the combined balanced signal is effectively zero, that is the whole point of balanced so as to reject external noise... zero x anything = zero. Consequently how the balanced signal is treated by the amp will vary on the amp design.

Also you have introduced the term dB as a relative measure between signal level and loudness and that can also be mis leading and  I hope you agree  care is again needed.

Doubling or 2x the  signal voltage (6dB) equates to 4x the amp power, which equates to 2x the sound pressure, which equates to approx 1.52x loudness level. In other words for most people’s perception of music loudness or volume  from their Hi-Fi system, to double the loudness, the signal would need to increase approximately by 3.16x (10dB)

It was my understanding that balanced generally 'expected ' double the signal voltage of unbalanced for the same output, by using the ATC balanced inputs with an unbalanced signal are we not grounding one side of the ATC balanced inputs and feeding them half level signal? 

I think I might be confusing my self now,and as ever I guess it's down to trying it with specific products

I might consider a new source which outputs balanced. 

Any ideas?  Main source of music being streaming and network music. 

Chord HugoTT and Dave DACs both have balanced outputs and can feed power amps direct, just need suitable player.

Sources without internal preamps, e.g. most ‘streamers’ need to go though a seperate preamp, so it would be a preamp with balanced outputs you’d need. Two examples I know of are Bryston & ATC.

I'm using a Benchmark DAC3 HGC which is excellent . I came across it when I first heard ATC Actives about 6 months ago powering SCM 50s . I compared it at home to my original hugo and supernait2 Pre and much preferred the Benchmark and especially its functionality compared to Hugo . It became available ex dem at a great price so I snapped it up . 

Apparently it was designed with powering Active speakers in mind and features a very good Pre section . It also features adjustable gain by the use of internal jumpers ranging from -10 to -20 db , something I will be doing over the weekend as I need more range on the Volume . Benchmark are a very interesting engineering led company not widely available in the UK but certainly worth seeking out if you're looking for a new DAC offering great sound and value .

Alternatively I would have probably bought a Chord Hugo TT(2) or Dave depending on finances . It will also be interesting to see what arrives from Naim in the near future , apparently they initiated a review of the NAC 272 / ATC40 Active combination for HiFi Plus by Nigel Kennedy . It would be nice to see a 272 type player from Naim featuring balanced outputs somewhere down the line as I certainly feel the powered speaker market is only going to grow .

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Allan Probin posted:

With my network streamer, the balanced outputs are 2x the voltage of the unbalanced outputs, i.e. 6db higher, meaning the volume control needs turning down by 6db when using the balanced outputs to achieve the same output from the speakers compared to using the unbalanced outputs.

Or, looking at it the other way, if you're using an unbalanced to balanced connection, your source will need to be turned up by 6db compared to using a balanced connection, which could be an advantage with an analogue potentiometer volume control as it keeps the volume setting higher up in the volume control range, helping to avoid channel tracking volume imbalance issues.

I would be careful here... your personal example might be your balanced signal equates to twice the value of your non balanced signal... but that is absolutely not the general case. Typically balanced is the unbalanced signal twice but out of phase with each other, so the combined balanced signal is effectively zero, that is the whole point of balanced so as to reject external noise... zero x anything = zero. Consequently how the balanced signal is treated by the amp will vary on the amp design.

Also you have introduced the term dB as a relative measure between signal level and loudness and that can also be mis leading and  I hope you agree  care is again needed.

Doubling or 2x the  signal voltage (6dB) equates to 4x the amp power, which equates to 2x the sound pressure, which equates to approx 1.52x loudness level. In other words for most people’s perception of music loudness or volume  from their Hi-Fi system, to double the loudness, the signal would need to increase approximately by 3.16x (10dB)

All looks good to me. Keep in mind the only mention of loudness here is in relation to obtaining the *same* loudness level, as no one is likely to listen at a higher or lower loudness to what they would otherwise do just because they are using a balanced or unbalanced connection.

As a user, what would be important is that their source or pre-amp has the output voltage range to drive the speakers to the various loudness levels they are ever likely to want and to achieve that in a useable range on the volume control. In practice using an unbalanced to balanced connection, where a balanced output is not available, is unlikely to fall foul of these requirements and I'm sure they can be comfortably met by a Naim pre-amp or source, if that is what Roog currently has. 

ROOG posted:

I might consider a new source which outputs balanced. 

Any ideas?  Main source of music being streaming and network music. 

I have heard ATC actives driven from a bare 272 several metres away and they sounded excellent, balanced output or not.  If you do want a balanced output from a Naim pre, I think you need to go to an S1 (apologies if wrong).  Outside the Naim range, I heard 40As at the recent Acoustica show driven by an Auralic Vega G2 streamer/preamp (and optional Aries G2), which has balanced outputs, and really enjoyed the music it produced.  The Auralic also offers direct streaming from Qobuz, if that's important.  YMMV, but might be worth an audition if available and within your budget.

Roger

pete T15 posted:

It would be nice to see a 272 type player from Naim featuring balanced outputs somewhere down the line as I certainly feel the powered speaker market is only going to grow .

I wouldn't be overly concerned as Naim's 4 pin din pre out already does a first class job

Musicraft (Derby) posted:

pete T15 posted:

It would be nice to see a 272 type player from Naim featuring balanced outputs somewhere down the line as I certainly feel the powered speaker market is only going to grow .

I wouldn't be overly concerned as Naim's 4 pin din pre out already does a first class job

Inthink the point was a balanced output, not DIN vs XLR.

while you guys are debating these mundane and boring technical issues, I had the good luck to audition the new Naim Nova with Focal Aria speakers... very very very nice, foot tapping, engaging, musical, I really do like the Nova and focal speakers are actually very good !

Downstairs my dealer also has the absolute top of the line Linn Klimax Exakt active speakers and those are like the Rolls Royce of audio - effortless, musical, engaging - this is apparent from the first note....

Please do look into all options from Naim and Focal... 

Peakman posted:

ROOG posted:

I might consider a new source which outputs balanced. 

Any ideas?  Main source of music being streaming and network music. 

I have heard ATC actives driven from a bare 272 several metres away and they sounded excellent, balanced output or not.  If you do want a balanced output from a Naim pre, I think you need to go to an S1 (apologies if wrong).  Outside the Naim range, I heard 40As at the recent Acoustica show driven by an Auralic Vega G2 streamer/preamp (and optional Aries G2), which has balanced outputs, and really enjoyed the music it produced.  The Auralic also offers direct streaming from Qobuz, if that's important.  YMMV, but might be worth an audition if available and within your budget.

Roger

Thanks for all of the suggestions, I shall see what my ATC dealer has to offer as well as trying naim unbalanced 

pete T15 posted:

I'm using a Benchmark DAC3 HGC which is excellent . I came across it when I first heard ATC Actives about 6 months ago powering SCM 50s . I compared it at home to my original hugo and supernait2 Pre and much preferred the Benchmark and especially its functionality compared to Hugo . It became available ex dem at a great price so I snapped it up . 

Apparently it was designed with powering Active speakers in mind and features a very good Pre section . It also features adjustable gain by the use of internal jumpers ranging from -10 to -20 db , something I will be doing over the weekend as I need more range on the Volume . Benchmark are a very interesting engineering led company not widely available in the UK but certainly worth seeking out if you're looking for a new DAC offering great sound and value .

Alternatively I would have probably bought a Chord Hugo TT(2) or Dave depending on finances . It will also be interesting to see what arrives from Naim in the near future , apparently they initiated a review of the NAC 272 / ATC40 Active combination for HiFi Plus by Nigel Kennedy . It would be nice to see a 272 type player from Naim featuring balanced outputs somewhere down the line as I certainly feel the powered speaker market is only going to grow .

I'm happy to go with the phono output from my SU, equally I might just chop the whole system in and start again hence my interest in alternative sources, sadly that looks like this Would take me in a different direction to Naim

analogmusic posted:

while you guys are debating these mundane and boring technical issues, I had the good luck to audition the new Naim Nova with Focal Aria speakers... very very very nice, foot tapping, engaging, musical, I really do like the Nova and focal speakers are actually very good !

Downstairs my dealer also has the absolute top of the line Linn Klimax Exakt active speakers and those are like the Rolls Royce of audio - effortless, musical, engaging - this is apparent from the first note....

Please do look into all options from Naim and Focal... 

Finally someone who likes Naim with Focal,I thought I was almost alone,I switched from Dyn special 40s to Sopra 1s.From the first note,it was quite obvious that it was a fantastic combo.I have since added Superlumina cables,which were also great from Day one.I will admit though,i wish i knew that Dynaudio was about to release a new Confidence line,I might of waited,until I could get a demo of the Confidence 20s...but this Naim/Sopra 1 combo is really good.

No quarter posted:

analogmusic posted:

while you guys are debating these mundane and boring technical issues, I had the good luck to audition the new Naim Nova with Focal Aria speakers... very very very nice, foot tapping, engaging, musical, I really do like the Nova and focal speakers are actually very good !

Downstairs my dealer also has the absolute top of the line Linn Klimax Exakt active speakers and those are like the Rolls Royce of audio - effortless, musical, engaging - this is apparent from the first note....

Please do look into all options from Naim and Focal... 

Finally someone who likes Naim with Focal,I thought I was almost alone,I switched from Dyn special 40s to Sopra 1s.From the first note,it was quite obvious that it was a fantastic combo.I have since added Superlumina cables,which were also great from Day one.I will admit though,i wish i knew that Dynaudio was about to release a new Confidence line,I might of waited,until I could get a demo of the Confidence 20s...but this Naim/Sopra 1 combo is really good.

Just because there is one very vocal poster who hates Focal on here doesn't mean we all feel that way. I was really happy with my Uniti2 + Focal Aria 926's until the 4.6 update. Stunning sounding all-in-one system

Penarth Blues posted:

No quarter posted:.

Just because there is one very vocal poster who hates Focal on here doesn't mean we all feel that way. I was really happy with my Uniti2 + Focal Aria 926's until the 4.6 update. Stunning sounding all-in-one system

I gained the impression that it is rather more than one person who doesn’t like Focal speakers, as most recently in the Munic thread, but also many threads before.

But then, it is hardly surprising, as speakers all sound so different from one another -even when you get into quite rarified price brackets. To me, it shows how far from perfect (leaving aside what that might mean) speakers are - at least all possibly except one. As they vary so much, individual ones inevitably appeal to some people, who rejec others as sounding awful, while other people find vice versa. The root of the differences in preference of course is the different presentations people find maximise their enjoyment of music. Nowt so strange as folk, as the saying goes.

Well, I can’t-  win I used Naim Ovator 600s a while back and they came in from a slating from the very person who hates Focal. I now have Sopra 2s and love them. I play classical and jazz in the main and they’re perfect. Perhaps they’re not so good with ear bleeding volumes of rock but that’s not me. Either which way I bought mine on the back of a home dem and having attended one or two shows in the past deduced that they’re the very worst place to judge SQ. Also  full of old blokes with beards and sandals looking for freebies

I once asked Alan Sircom about comparing the Uniti Nova to the Naim SuperNait 2 alone and to the SuperNait 2 plus HiCap DR combination as possible solutions for driving the ATC SCM 40. He suggested opting for a more powerful amplifier than both the Nova and SuperNait to drive the SCM 40. (His answer was couched in terms of the SuperNait not the SuperNait 2 and HiCap DR as I had suggested.)

I am not able to connect to Focal after listening to them multiple times. It's unfortunate Naim is married to Focal now. 

I was very very pleasantly surprised when I heard focal speakers with Naim

really musical and engaging 

You know they’re really not that bad and it’s not unfortunate at all. I don’t go to shows having attended a couple in the past. I think they’re totally the wrong environment for serious auditioning. My dealer certainly doesn’t insist on Focal in his dems. I do also feel there’s a herd mentality in dissing a product - same elsewhere with the Ovator 400s. 

kaydee6 posted:

I am not able to connect to Focal after listening to them multiple times. It's unfortunate Naim is married to Focal now. 

I know what you mean... there is something about them that doesn’t gel and sounds artificial with me, and I have listened to multiple models in different environments... 

I was at a listening session at the home of Naim a little while back, and a few fellow enthusiasts I was listening with volunteered the same observation, and the comment then was it is a shame Naim don’t demo using ATC or something similar... I guess it must be down to how you listen and interpret sound, and it appears there are a few of us  Naim enthusiasts  who just don’t do it the same way as Focal does.

Speakers all have their own characters, and inevitably some people will like and others not. The same challenges would apply if Naim was “wedded” to ATC or Neat or B&W etc. Simply put, different people want different things from speakers, some wanting deep bass others not, some wanting a smoothing effect others not, some wanting neutrality others not, etc. 

Most interesting might be the question: Do those at Naim who are responsible for the ‘Naim sound’ believe that Focal speakers sound great, perfectly complementing Naim products? If so, maybe that tells us something. (But if asked they are unlikely to be able to answer freely if the answer is negative, given the company position.) 

IB, the whole point is it would be better some of are saying if Naim wasn’t ‘wedded’ to Focal or any other speaker manufacturer, but have more diversity in Naim demos with a variation of manufacturers... 

i would also suggest the area that is most critical in the ‘naturalness’ of a speaker is the mid to upper mid response .. ie those frequencies our brains are most sensitive to.... extra bass or atmospheric high end is all fine and one can tailor to suit taste, but if the basics aren’t there for a listener then bass or extended high end kind of becomes irrelevant.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Speakers all have their own characters, and inevitably some people will like and others not. The same challenges would apply if Naim was “wedded” to ATC or Neat or B&W etc. Simply put, different people want different things from speakers, some wanting deep bass others not, some wanting a smoothing effect others not, some wanting neutrality others not, etc. 

Most interesting might be the question: Do those at Naim who are responsible for the ‘Naim sound’ believe that Focal speakers sound great, perfectly complementing Naim products? If so, maybe that tells us something. (But if asked they are unlikely to be able to answer freely if the answer is negative, given the company position.) 

 

When they are asked you will not get any negative comments about Focal speakers. I heard some Scala Utopias as Naim recently and thought they were bloody awful - all boom and tizz and hifi effects but very little musical involvement. I certainly wouldn’t buy Naim if I’d only heard it with Focals. Yet some people love them, which shows how taste and rooms differ. My local Naim dealer no longer sells Focal speakers so Naim/Focal demonstrations are not an option. PMC is very much their favourite. 

Naim do still have SL2s at the factory that are used to voice the equipment, along with Ovators, DBLs and of course the F word. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Speakers all have their own characters, and inevitably some people will like and others not. The same challenges would apply if Naim was “wedded” to ATC or Neat or B&W etc. Simply put, different people want different things from speakers, some wanting deep bass others not, some wanting a smoothing effect others not, some wanting neutrality others not, etc. 

Most interesting might be the question: Do those at Naim who are responsible for the ‘Naim sound’ believe that Focal speakers sound great, perfectly complementing Naim products? If so, maybe that tells us something. (But if asked they are unlikely to be able to answer freely if the answer is negative, given the company position.) 

 

When they are asked you will not get any negative comments about Focal speakers. I heard some Scala Utopias as Naim recently and thought they were bloody awful - all boom and tizz and hifi effects but very little musical involvement. I certainly wouldn’t buy Naim if I’d only heard it with Focals. Yet some people love them, which shows how taste and rooms differ. My local Naim dealer no longer sells Focal speakers so Naim/Focal demonstrations are not an option. PMC is very much their favourite. 

Naim do still have SL2s at the factory that are used to voice the equipment, along with Ovators, DBLs and of course the F word. 

It does seem a bit of a strange situation we have here Nigel, don't you think? 

I mean, Naim demonstrate their equipment in general with Focal speakers but their gear is still being voiced using Naim speakers, which they no longer make, to add further affect it seems no many here are keen with the Naim & Focal sound?

It's all a bit bizarre if you ask me...

It’s not bizarre

nobody forces  anyone to buy focal with Naim equipment