ATC SCM40 stumbles the SN2?

analogmusic posted:

It’s not bizarre

nobody forces  anyone to buy focal with Naim equipment 

Well yes, this is true. Same as nobody is forced to buy Naim speakers with Naim equipment and there are many who didn't. I was just merely thinking about the once system synergy that Naim are renowned for!  A bit like their cables.

But even Naim speakers were divisive, not everyone liked them, even if I did, and still do. I was sitting next to Nigel who clearly did not like these Focal speakers. The guy to my right loved them, I was not very impressed with them, and I think it was Don to the left of Nigel who did not mind them.......so I guess they are getting it right for some, though clearly not all.

Canadians have a knack in designing loudspeakers based on my experience with Totem, PSB and Paradigm. They are so musical and so easy on the ears and brain without the loss of prat. This is perhaps the Canadians have the National Research Council (NRC)'s research to help them design speakers that apply correct psycho acoustic principles . Another company I respect their research on their psycho acoustic research is Harman, shame though they sold themselves to Samsung which might hinder their future research for the betterment of the sound community. I think the French got it all wrong in designing loudspeakers. Its all about looks and throwing the sound at you hoping to impress. Cultures have a big influence on how products are designed, made and used.

You can add me to the list as a not impressed Gazza,  bizarre unnatural sound,  hard to say with electronic instruments but the voice stuff was very telling.  

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

IB, the whole point is it would be better some of are saying if Naim wasn’t ‘wedded’ to Focal or any other speaker manufacturer, but have more diversity in Naim demos with a variation of manufacturers... 

i would also suggest the area that is most critical in the ‘naturalness’ of a speaker is the mid to upper mid response .. ie those frequencies our brains are most sensitive to.... extra bass or atmospheric high end is all fine and one can tailor to suit taste, but if the basics aren’t there for a listener then bass or extended high end kind of becomes irrelevant.

Agreed (and I wasn’t suggesting otherwise): demoing with several other speakers (as well) would be the best way of gaining more sales, as demoing only with Focal is demoing a fixed system, and sales of Naim - or of Focal - could be lost if people don’t like the combination. 

However, I’m not sure how far shows go in relation to convincing the buying public to buy or not,, though of course a bad impression could be final, and more particularly there is presumably very limited scope to have multiple demonstrations with different speakers, without significantly increasing the cost of exhibiting by booking additional rooms.

Stephen Tate posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Speakers all have their own characters, and inevitably some people will like and others not. The same challenges would apply if Naim was “wedded” to ATC or Neat or B&W etc. Simply put, different people want different things from speakers, some wanting deep bass others not, some wanting a smoothing effect others not, some wanting neutrality others not, etc. 

Most interesting might be the question: Do those at Naim who are responsible for the ‘Naim sound’ believe that Focal speakers sound great, perfectly complementing Naim products? If so, maybe that tells us something. (But if asked they are unlikely to be able to answer freely if the answer is negative, given the company position.) 

 

When they are asked you will not get any negative comments about Focal speakers. I heard some Scala Utopias as Naim recently and thought they were bloody awful - all boom and tizz and hifi effects but very little musical involvement. I certainly wouldn’t buy Naim if I’d only heard it with Focals. Yet some people love them, which shows how taste and rooms differ. My local Naim dealer no longer sells Focal speakers so Naim/Focal demonstrations are not an option. PMC is very much their favourite. 

Naim do still have SL2s at the factory that are used to voice the equipment, along with Ovators, DBLs and of course the F word. 

It does seem a bit of a strange situation we have here Nigel, don't you think? 

I mean, Naim demonstrate their equipment in general with Focal speakers but their gear is still being voiced using Naim speakers, which they no longer make, to add further affect it seems no many here are keen with the Naim & Focal sound?

It's all a bit bizarre if you ask me...

I too don't think it's bizarre. First, Naim had to use some speakers to voice their amps, so which ones were best than their own, probably voiced using Naim amps?

Second, now that Naim is not building speakers any more Naim amp/speaker matching seems to have become a sort of unavoidable must, but not so long ago many here were critical to Naim speakers, and simply chose something else.

I know Focal speakers since the mid 90s, when they were called JMLab Focal and were a mid/upper dept. store target; I never thought much of them then, and I don't now; I am sure that the few decently sounding Focals (if any exist) are so because of Naim's co-operation in design. All in all, it's more Focal having gained from buying Naim than Naim having lost from the annexation.

My point is, that even when Naim was building loudspeakers (in my humble opinion, their strongest point along with amps), people not infrequently chose something else. So what? I was listening to the Nova yesterday, with Neat SX2s, and I realized how little I liked those diminutive floor standers: too much and too assertive bass, unnatural midrange, the sound of David wanting you to think he's Goliath. A Nap300DR, on the other hand, sounded wonderful with Canton X series, the least assuming and aggressive speakers I have heard in a while. There's plenty of options. As far as stores and audio shows are concerned, I believe it's not Naim demoing with Focal but the other way 'round; and I believe that this forum is mainly populated with people who are proud of thinking with their head, except for the unexperienced or the humble who ask for advices and have the sense and good manners of trying to verify as many ones as feasible.

Max

I auditioned a pair of ATC SCM40’s yesterday at a well-appointed Oxford hifi dealer and I thought I would share my experience.

A colleague and I tried the SCM40’s with the following equipment: 

1. Naim Uniti Nova
2. Nova + NAP 250DR
3. Nova + Musical Fidelity Encore 225 (power amp stage)
4. Devialet 220 pro
5. Nova + Dan D'Agostino Progression pre and power amp! 

The listening room was squarish with some treatment applied and sounded reasonably well controlled.

Starting off with the Nova my feeling was that the bass control was a bit lacking, adding the 250DR improved the bass but it also sounded freer, less constrained. Altogether a smooth and engaging listen.

Next was to retain the Nova as the source and to bring in the Musical Fidelity just to perform the power amp duties. I had tried the 200+Watt  MF to good effect previously and I wanted to compare it to the 250dr. The MF had no trouble driving the SCM 40’s but the presentation was more forward and I found the top end a bit fatiguing, certainly less refined than the 250dr.

Now for a complete system change, the Devialet. This was an interesting prospect, with SAM, or Speaker Active Management and lots of controls long since lost from many HiFi products. The 220Watt Devialet was certainly capable of driving the SCM 40’s but I found the sound a bit sterile and less engaging than the Nova led system.

Returning to the Nova + 250DR sweetness was reinstated and all was well.

Now it hadn’t gone without notice that in the room was a D'Agostino Progression pre and power amp, and just for fun, the dealer very kindly hooked the Nova analogue out into the D’Agostino pre and power units to feed the SCM 40’s.

It was hard to stifle the big grin, even from cold this combination was quite something. Yes of course the power amp had total grip over those speakers but what was really noticeable was the significantly expanded sound stage. A sublime sounding set up, madness perhaps but lovely!

My findings conclude for me at least that although the SCM 40’s will start off fed from my all in one, a Superuniti, I will very shortly be looking for a 250dr or perhaps a 300dr to partner the 40's. But a D’Agostino? well I guess that I will have to leave such delights for those who are more well heeled than I.   :0)

kaydee6 posted:

I am not able to connect to Focal after listening to them multiple times. It's unfortunate Naim is married to Focal now. 

Agree

Those I've heard and seen were bloody awfull, both soundwise and sheer looks, I would never give room for such ugly and way overpriced speakers. I am really sorry Naim was forced to enter that marriage. What a contrast looking back at the JV days.

ATC otoh are really tempting, the stand mounts I've heard were great but, as discussed here, need hefty power.

Their floorstanders are in generel a better bet running active, Surpriced if people are using them on Nad or Solo kit.

Perol, nothing wrong at all with a Focal / Naim combo

I didn’t say they are no good, simply that I haven’t liked them when I heard them. Perol didn’t like what he heard. I don’t like what I heard. Are we wrong? Why the need to defend Focal speakers so vehemently? It’s simply a matter of taste. 

Perol didnt just say he didn’t like them

That’s my issue. Some minimal respect for the people who pay for the forum is needed

does  Perol not understand the reasons behind the merger?

in this case perols  ignorance is not bliss it’s just pathetic 

personally i hate naim with focal , atc, dynaudio, naim speakers and bw.  So all tastes have their place.   I once heard focal with lamm , it was marvelous.

I am more for naim with Apertura ( mine), Living Voice, Sonus Faber.

Perols remarks were very disrespectful. Remarks about the merger are way way above his pay grade

nobidy has to like focal speakers but he went way too far. 

Perol was irrespectful with Focal speakers , not with you Analogmusic.   But anyway, i got fun reading the thread...  and i liked your photos.

I stand by what I said I've heard Focal electra, Sopra and Aria speakers, surprisingly good with Naim.

I agree Analog,it might come down to the type of music you are playing,my Sopra 1s really excel with Jazz and classical music.Rock and blues are quite good too,but I think my Dynaudio’s work a little better for those genres.I have both set up in the same room,same source,and the Focals get much more play time.I also wonder about room placement...British homes tend to have smaller rooms with fireplaces in most living rooms.Here in Canada,the rooms seem to be more spacious,my Sopras are 4 feet from the front wall,2.5 feet from the side walls.I also have extensive room treatments,which appear to be few and far between in Britain.The end result is quite stunning in MY ROOM,which has a lot more to do with the sound than people realize.It also appears that all these demos with Naim/Focal are using the massive Utopias,which look more at home in an auditorium.

OK, I've culled a few posts and made some edits. Let's keep it civil, please - and that applies to all. 

This thread seems to have drifted from the title, about ATC speakers, and become a somewhat testy exchange about Focal speakers. As a fan of Focal speakers I'm not objective, but what I think what we could agree on is that the whole issue is very subjective - both on how speakers sound and how they look.  I think we would also do well to accept that is someone else having a different view doesn't make them wrong. This is all a matter of personal taste.  Personally, I have found the well respected brands of PMC and top-end B&W not to my taste: the former I found accurate but a bit too relaxed, the latter I thought the bass too dry. But I wouldn't for one moment suggest that others are wrong or mis-guided if they like them.  

What I would say, even as a Focal fan, is that the styling is not subtle (they are French) and the beryllium tweeter can easily sound a bit harsh if the matching equipment and set-up in the listening room isn't right. But, hey, they please me in my system, and did so well before the merger occured so all this stuff about 'voicing' is irrelevant to me.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I didn’t say they are no good, simply that I haven’t liked them when I heard them. Perol didn’t like what he heard. I don’t like what I heard. Are we wrong? Why the need to defend Focal speakers so vehemently? It’s simply a matter of taste. 

Exactly

No quarter posted:

I agree Analog,it might come down to the type of music you are playing,my Sopra 1s really excel with Jazz and classical music.Rock and blues are quite good too,but I think my Dynaudio’s work a little better for those genres.I have both set up in the same room,same source,and the Focals get much more play time.I also wonder about room placement...British homes tend to have smaller rooms with fireplaces in most living rooms.Here in Canada,the rooms seem to be more spacious,my Sopras are 4 feet from the front wall,2.5 feet from the side walls.I also have extensive room treatments,which appear to be few and far between in Britain.The end result is quite stunning in MY ROOM,which has a lot more to do with the sound than people realize.It also appears that all these demos with Naim/Focal are using the massive Utopias,which look more at home in an auditorium.

The best speakers simply work, presenting music clearly, with as much detail and range and dynamics and accuracy of timing as fed by the power amp, regardless of genre...

Innocent Bystander posted:

The best speakers simply work, presenting music clearly, with as much detail and range and dynamics and accuracy of timing as fed by the power amp, regardless of genre...

Amen to that. 

The Sopras do ALL genres well,I just happen to be listening to a lot of Jazz and classical lately,which they are awesome with.Perhaps I worded it wrong,seems like everyone just want to jump all over Focal for some reason,I love mine,and have stopped thinking about upgrades.If something l like better comes along,I will demo them,I just don’t get all this hatred.

No quarter posted:

The Sopras do ALL genres well,I just happen to be listening to a lot of Jazz and classical lately,which they are awesome with.Perhaps I worded it wrong,seems like everyone just want to jump all over Focal for some reason,I love mine,and have stopped thinking about upgrades.If something l like better comes along,I will demo them,I just don’t get all this hatred.

And I didn’t mean to suggest they don’t, not having heard them, my reply merely responding to your comments - however it is surprising how often people do say that certain speakers are great for X type of music but not Y.

No quarter posted:

The Sopras do ALL genres well,I just happen to be listening to a lot of Jazz and classical lately,which they are awesome with.Perhaps I worded it wrong,seems like everyone just want to jump all over Focal for some reason,I love mine,and have stopped thinking about upgrades.If something l like better comes along,I will demo them,I just don’t get all this hatred.

Neither do I. ...

I recall Emre of this forum also changed his Sonus Faber Cremona for Sopra 2 or Sopra 3? 

Massimo Bertola posted:

My point is, that even when Naim was building loudspeakers (in my humble opinion, their strongest point along with amps), people not infrequently chose something else. So what? I was listening to the Nova yesterday, with Neat SX2s, and I realized how little I liked those diminutive floor standers: too much and too assertive bass, unnatural midrange, the sound of David wanting you to think he's Goliath.  

Well it's a good thing we all have different tastes then Max.

One of the best hi Fi moves I have ever made was getting rid of my Credo speakers and swapping them for a pair Neat motive SX2 speakers. I am actually enjoying my music again without the need to faff around and put up with the 'moody' off or on days of the Credos.