ATC SCM40 stumbles the SN2?

Then you think wrong. You think I don’t know Naim don’t make speakers anymore ?

Second hand Naim speakers are available and I’m on the search for those elusive SL2

with the aspiration for a Naim active system.... 

Analog ... that's great and I sincerely hope that you achieve your chosen goal.

Just take care and ensure that you actually listen to the system before deciding that it is the panacea ... since there are other alternatives out there that may suit you better.

As ever, listening first and don't make assumptions based on the comments made by others.

It's all a matter of personal taste and making suggestions about possible solutions is absolutely fine ... as opposed to being intransigent about alternative options. 

It just gets a little irritating when trying to "preach" about there being only one way.

It's almost a decade of Naim ownership, and trying all kinds of Naim products and others too.

There's no company like Naim that have made a beginning to end system, from the source, amplifiers, crossovers, speakers, and cables.

Naim never compromises on engineering, and that is why I guess they simply  didn't attach an amp pack to the back panel of a speaker?

Naim got there decades ago, and I trust Naim products to be able to play music in a way that makes me forget I am listening to a hi-fi, and takes me back to the original performance....

Irritation is what comes to me when I listen to a compromised hi-fi system.... musical enjoyment is the goal...

analogmusic posted:

It's almost a decade of Naim ownership, and trying all kinds of Naim products and others too.

There's no company like Naim that have made a beginning to end system, from the source, amplifiers, crossovers, speakers, and cables.

Naim never compromises on engineering, and that is why I guess they simply  didn't attach an amp pack to the back panel of a speaker?

Naim got there decades ago, and I trust Naim products to be able to play music in a way that makes me forget I am listening to a hi-fi, and takes me back to the original performance....

Irritation is what comes to me when I listen to a compromised hi-fi system.... musical enjoyment is the goal...

 

Errrrr........Linn to name one! 

So when are you trading down to an nDAC from your DAVE? 

Oh dear, this has rather got out of hand. All that matters is whether people like the sound of music what they use. 

Analogmusic, interestingly a committed digitallistener, if I read this right you say Naim is best - but went for Dave (and Mojo). You rejected Dynaudio active speakers, and on that basis reject ATC actives? without having heard? And you say people should decide with their ears. Aren’t there some inconsistencies here...

analogmusic posted:

I’m on the search for those elusive SL2

with the aspiration for a Naim active system.... 

They crop up sufficiently regularly, though I don’t know how many potential buyers descend on each one. Most recent I’ve seen were advertised in March, possibly refreashed on 10th May though that is unclear. Still showing for sale (€3,500), but of course that doesn’t mean they are actually still available. From Italy (but if I was desperate enough for something I wouldn’t let the location stop me - I have sat on ferries for 7 hours and driven 700 miles to look at speakers, and bought an amp from Canada).

Muttonjef clearly I posted about my interest in ND555.

But you are being disinegenious as usual so I will now put you in my ignore list.

Analog .... I think you’ve lost the plot.

no I haven’t but .... this forums quality is made a lot less attractive with such disingenuous posts which do not add any value  both from yourself and mutton 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Oh dear, this has rather got out of hand. All that matters is whether people like the sound of music what they use. 

Analogmusic, interestingly a committed digitallistener, if I read this right you say Naim is best - but went for Dave (and Mojo). You rejected Dynaudio active speakers, and on that basis reject ATC actives? without having heard? And you say people should decide with their ears. Aren’t there some inconsistencies here...

No.

It is a valid question, I do own a turntable with a growing Vinyl collection which I do enjoy a lot.

Hope that answers your question.

I like way my music sounds with Naim, and I will not consider ATC actives, just because it's becoming flavour of the month. We've seen this before on the Naim forum with the Sarum wave of hyperbole, the Lavry ones, to a certain extent the Kudos ones and lets not forget tellurium. It's a wave of enthusiasm that seems to suggest you can improve on the Naim  intended performance for less money than Naim charge, but it doesn't work out like that to my ears.

One example of Naim performance is the Hi Cap. It seems like a simple enough device, but there is many tiny details such as matching of the regulators, wiring loom and positioning within the case that make the Naim product what it is, so actually, no, it's not that simple at all.

It's all fine, sources and speakers  may indeed change as indeed I need a much better turntable, and who knows what Rob Watts may invent in the future, and who knows what the ND555 sounds like, but my Naim amplifiers are staying put.

Until you hear one you just won't be able to understand what the fuss is all about, I'm afraid.

And why all this commotion about ATC? There's hundreds of speaker companies out there ....  and plenty of them available on second hand prices.

As I did indeed mention, Naim designed their preamps and power amps (including the interconnect that links them together) to work as one unit, so using a Naim preamp with another power amp or indeed an active speaker is not something that is acceptable to me for my system as I am not prepared to compromise the performance of my Naim amplifers - what I call the Naim intended performance.

Some people like aftermarket tweaks  but not for me.

analogmusic posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Analogmusic, interestingly a committed digitallistener, if I read this right you say Naim is best - but went for Dave (and Mojo). You rejected Dynaudio active speakers, and on that basis reject ATC actives? without having heard? And you say people should decide with their ears. Aren’t there some inconsistencies here...

No.

It is a valid question, I do own a turntable with a growing Vinyl collection which I do enjoy a lot.

Hope that answers your question. Yes, with regard to your moniker - but other inconsistencies remain.

I like way my music sounds with Naim, and I will not consider ATC actives, just because it's becoming flavour of the month. No problem, but similarly other people may consider them We've seen this before on the Naim forum with the Sarum wave of hyperbole, the Lavry ones, to a certain extent the Kudos ones and lets not forget tellurium. It's a wave of enthusiasm that seems to suggest you can improve on the Naim  intended performance for less money than Naim charge, but it doesn't work out like that to my ears. Erm Vertere cables instead of Superlumina?

 

It's all fine, sources and speakers  may indeed change as indeed I need a much better turntable, and who knows what Rob Watts may invent in the future, and who knows what the ND555 sounds like, but my Naim amplifiers are staying put. But a Naim DAC didn’t - presumably because you heard something that to you was indeed better than Naim’s design, despite Naim’s Intended Performance. Why is that not conceivable with an amp? (Is this not an inconsistency?)

Until you hear one you just won't be able to understand what the fuss is all about, I'm afraid. Indeed - so I don’t knock them, though I do ask about them, and as I have said before, I hope to hear one day. And until you heard a Chord DAC you didn’t know what all the fuss was about. And until you hear an ATC active speaker you won’t know what all the fuss is with them (and nor do/will I).

And why all this commotion about ATC? Maybe, just maybe, because they’re good? I personally have only heard ATC’s legendary dome midrange - and that was enough to buy a pair at the best part of £500 each to build into something myself. Meanwhile other people question similarly about Chord, when you leap in and cite Rob Watts’ latest musings (not an inconcistency here?)

As I did indeed mention, Naim designed their preamps and power amps (including the interconnect that links them together) to work as one unit, so using a Naim preamp with another power amp or indeed an active speaker is not something that is acceptable to me for my system as I am not prepared to compromise the performance of my Naim amplifers - what I call the Naim intended performance. How do you know it is compromised if you haven’t heard?

Some people like aftermarket tweaks  but not for me. Erm, you’ve played with cables? Different DACs? They’re as much aftermarket tweaks as trying different amps, whether or not built into speakers. 

 

Please see comments in red above. 

BTW, I am not advocating ATC amps over Naim, just the reasonableness of people being interested in trying them, though I do advocate active bi-/tri-amping, based on everything I understand about amps driving speaker drive units, supplemented by personal experience (and active speakers are the ultimate implication, removing speaker cables from the equation) - though I understand that Dynaudio, whose speakers I gather you believe are the bees knees, apparently didn’t do a good job of it to your ears.

Naim do not advocate bi or tri amping in a passive system.

Please take the time to listen to an all Naim system. 

analogmusic posted:

Naim do not advocate bi or tri amping in a passive system.

Please take the time to listen to an all Naim system. 

 

If you mean passive bi-amping, I don’t see the point, and your comment is disingenuous as that is wholly irrelevant to the active ARC consideration. 

Otherwise, I had the strange impression that Naim made the SBL and SL2 with removable crossovers, and something called a Snaxo, which I can only assume were designed to make active systems. If they didn’t think there was benefit, why would they do that?

The key here in the Naim method is that the crossover and amplifier are mechanically decoupled from the speaker

the snaxo crossover benefits from a very high quality power supply and does not share it with the amplifier (as is the case with ATC)

but the speaker cable is still there. 

Muttonjef posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

There's no company like Naim that have made a beginning to end system, from the source, amplifiers, crossovers, speakers, and cables.

 

Errrrr........Linn to name one! 

So when are you trading down to an nDAC from your DAVE? 

Audionote UK make beautiful sounding complete systems with incredible instrumental timbre and soundstage placement.The Prat is there when it should be and not the least fatiguing to listen to......all made in the UK - easily on par with Naim in their no compromise design philosophy.

analogmusic posted:

 

The key here in the Naim method is that the crossover and amplifier are mechanically decoupled from the speaker

the snaxo crossover benefits from a very high quality power supply and does not share it with the amplifier (as is the case with ATC)

but the speaker cable is still there. 

Now you’re arguing that a reason for not having active speakers as opposed to an active system is a) Naim power amps’ susceptibility to transmitted vibration and b) the desirability of having a speaker cable. 

Yes, that is my understanding with Naim’s current amp architecture - and would be relevant if the subject was ultimate performance, comparing active triamping against active speakers, but it isn’t: what you have been objecting to is a particular non-Naim active speaker implementation (that you heven’t heard), against various other speakers driven passively by various Naim amps, when the contribution of the passive crossover is also a factor.

And for clarity, in my previous post ‘ARC’ clearly was supposed to read ATC, and my statement that I couldn’t see the point, was referring to passive bi-/tri-amping, not to listening to an all-Naim system.

You’re a bit lazy

no amount of discussion is a substitute for listening to a Naim system 

why don’t you visit a Naim dealer and hear what it’s all about ?

That’s rather ironic, if you think about it...

analogmusic posted:

You’re a bit lazy

no amount of discussion is a substitute for listening to a Naim system 

You don't have a Naim "system" analogmusic, so that's a bizarre comment to make.

To use a word you aimed at my system in an earlier post, you have a mongrel system. Which I would wager 99% the vast majority of us have.

No you don’t have a mongrel system

the mongrel systems are those which interfere between the Naim preamp and Naim power amp or the Naim supplied cable used to link them. These are all designed to work as one unit. 

It’s very simple : naim preamps cannot really drive long lengths of cable needed for active speakers unless modified by some method but I don’t know what that is...

hope that clarifies ?

analogmusic posted:

No you don’t have a mongrel system

the mongrel systems are those which interfere between the Naim preamp and Naim power amp or the Naim supplied cable used to link them. These are all designed to work as one unit. 

It’s very simple : naim preamps cannot really drive long lengths of cable needed for active speakers unless modified by some method but I don’t know what that is...

hope that clarifies ?

 

 

 

Silly me..................I've just realised you edited the post where you referred to my system as "mongrel".

Guys .... as I stated earlier and for reasons best known to himself, Analog continues to enjoy winding people up.

The reason? I’ve absolutely no idea, but I wouldn’t waste your breath.

Chill out and enjoy your music in your system ... which sounds awesome to you ????

Wise words indeed Mr Frog.

I have a few days off work and i'm currently listening to "Claire Teal - A Tribute to Ella Fitzgerald"  accompanied by a large mug of tea and bacon sarnie. 

It sounds fabulous on my mongrel system with compromised active ATC speakers!

analogmusic posted:

You’re a bit lazy

no amount of discussion is a substitute for listening to a Naim system 

why don’t you visit a Naim dealer and hear what it’s all about ?

Assuming that was aimed at me, I’m unclear where you perceive laziness comes into it, though I am by nature a lazy person? However, in response: i) if it didn’t cost me a few £hundred quite apart from precious time I would be inclined to - as it is it likely will wait until after I retire and move home, and ii) why don’t you listen to active ATC40s and hear what it is all about?

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what sounds best to them.  There's a good deal of passion shown here, but let's keep it respectful please, and  I'm not entirely sure whether there's any point in further argument.

If you like what active ATC speakers do then there's nothing wrong that.  ATC are an excellent company (let's not forget that Naim chose them to supply the bass driver for the DBL) and I've heard their speakers on a few occasions sounding most impressive. 

And if you prefer active Naim (and I will be probably the last person to argue with you if you do), then that's fine too.  They each take very different approaches to activation, perhaps because one needs to be robust and convenient enough for a professional environment, whereas the other doesn't.  But I would imagine they are ultimately each trying to achieve much the same thing.