ATC SCM40 stumbles the SN2?

OK some more Mongrelness for your delectation.

Analoguemusic must be doing his "raving na na" over there in Dubai. He needs to stay out of the sun! 

Allan Probin posted:

If we're posting images of active ATC's, would it be ok if I posted a couple of gratuitous images of mine? Please excuse the extreme mongrelness of my system, avert your gaze those of a faint nature.

 

Stunning! Can you post more photos!? - My next pair (of speakers) will definitely be in white...  

Allan Probin posted:

V nice - i like a simple, quality setup. The 19's look good 

Alonso posted:

How refreshing! - A post that is not feeding the trolls!

I've been trying to reconcile these positions since you made the original post and reflecting upon it, I think the problem is what is that we define as 'sensibly' or 'having no problems with' - We all seem to understand 'no problems with / sensibly' differently - If one were to connect a 5i to a pair of SCM40 or even a pair of SCM150 nothing would "happen", they would still make music, it would still sound ok, there would still be 'no issues' . I guess the engine/chassis analogy helps here - Sure, a 3-cyl Normally aspirated 998cc fitted to an AM DB11 chassis will still take you to London and back at 70mph, it will get there with 'no issues' - the question is simply how much of the potential are we wasting by fitting such small engine to it? How much of the experience are we missing for not matching the engine performance to what the chassis can take... same with the SCM19/40/50 and the NAP100 and Naits and 5is I guess. 

I stumble a little with that analogy, though I think I understand. Of course, with active speakers one assumes thatbthe speaker manypufacturer has chosen an optimum amp-speaker match - not meaning it can’t be bettered, but suggesting that bettering it may take some doing.

Innocent Bystander posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

It’s very simple : naim preamps cannot really drive long lengths of cable needed for active speakers unless modified by some method but I don’t know what that is... 

At last you have found what may be a valid point, though presumably the maximum length before noticeable degradation will in practice depend on the electrical characteristics of the cable, and of course there is the question as to whether the merits of the active speakers outweigh the demerits of the longer cable (which can only be determined by listening). Meanwhile from the system pics thread it seems far from uncommon for people to have the electronics midway bewteen the speakers, and not far from them...

Further to the above, anyone with a Dave DAC and no analog sources could feed ATC active speakers direct using balanced cables, and thus have no concern for length in a domestic environment.

That leads to what may be the ultimate in system minimalism: Dave into acrive speakers, used with a combined store/renderer (Uniti Core perhaps?).  As well as not having limitations on cable length to the amp, this would avoid Analogmusic’s concerns about using a Nac without a Nap, and also would avoid speaker cables - but inevitably eschewing whatever a Naim preamp brings to the party, so I suspect not an option many on here would expect to like.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Alonso posted:

How refreshing! - A post that is not feeding the trolls!

I've been trying to reconcile these positions since you made the original post and reflecting upon it, I think the problem is what is that we define as 'sensibly' or 'having no problems with' - We all seem to understand 'no problems with / sensibly' differently - If one were to connect a 5i to a pair of SCM40 or even a pair of SCM150 nothing would "happen", they would still make music, it would still sound ok, there would still be 'no issues' . I guess the engine/chassis analogy helps here - Sure, a 3-cyl Normally aspirated 998cc fitted to an AM DB11 chassis will still take you to London and back at 70mph, it will get there with 'no issues' - the question is simply how much of the potential are we wasting by fitting such small engine to it? How much of the experience are we missing for not matching the engine performance to what the chassis can take... same with the SCM19/40/50 and the NAP100 and Naits and 5is I guess. 

I stumble a little with that analogy, though I think I understand. Of course, with active speakers one assumes thatbthe speaker manypufacturer has chosen an optimum amp-speaker match - not meaning it can’t be bettered, but suggesting that bettering it may take some doing.

Oh no... I did not mean to say that the manufacturer (of active speakers) cannot be bettered in the amp department....  no no, my metaphor was merely pointing towards the fact that many people might consider a NAP100 or a 5Si 'sufficient' and 'report no issues' when feeding a pair of SCM40 .... hence the 998cc in an AM DB11...  yeah... it takes it from A to B but.... 

Innocent Bystander posted:

That leads to what may be the ultimate in system minimalism: Dave into acrive speakers, used with a combined store/renderer (Uniti Core perhaps?). 

I like that idea.. and I am not being sarcastic. I am seriously considering buying a S/H NAC-N172XS to feed a pair of S/H ATC SCM50ASLT....  (Anti-mullet brigade... start sharpening your pitchforks!) 

Contrary to expectations I found using Dave into a number of active speakers was not to my liking

using either a Naim or Linn preamp brought the music back to life

it lacked dynamics without the preamp.

this was also the finding of Michael fremer when he reviewed the nac552 on stereophile

naims most coveted product was the nac552 and the preamp is important !

Erm ..... perhaps the Dave isn’t Rob Watts Holy Grail after all 

Better stick to a Naim preamp into active ATC’s ????

I'm very happy using a Dave with a Naim amplifier.

I'm not at all interested in bringing an ATC monitor used in Studios into my home, but I'll concede they do look nice 

OH yes I do remember now- When I heard the Dynaudio focus XD, which is a superb active speaker with built in preamp and DAC, I knew right there and then this - is what I was looking for (as a speaker)

But the same passive speaker that I ended up purchasing (Focus 260) sounds far more capable when driven by my rig of Dave/282HCDR/250 DR.

analogmusic posted:

Contrary to expectations I found using Dave into a number of active speakers was not to my liking

using either a Naim or Linn preamp brought the music back to life

it lacked dynamics without the preamp.

this was also the finding of Michael fremer when he reviewed the nac552 on stereophile

naims most coveted product was the nac552 and the preamp is important !

But DAVE has a preamp built in, hence the shinny volume control knob.

With the TT and active 40’s, I have no lack of dynamics, far from it. In fact in that department, this combination walked all over my previous 272/250DR + passive 40’s.

Which active loudspeakers did you try with DAVE?

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

analogmusic posted:

I'm very happy using a Dave with a Naim amplifier.

I'm not at all interested in bringing an ATC monitor used in Studios into my home, but I'll concede they do look nice 

OH yes I do remember now- When I heard the Dynaudio focus XD, which is a superb active speaker with built in preamp and DAC, I knew right there and then this - is what I was looking for (as a speaker)

But the same passive speaker that I ended up purchasing (Focus 260) sounds far more capable when driven by my rig of Dave/282HCDR/250 DR.

 

 

 

With your gear Analog,I would look at auditioning the new Confidence C20...expensive,I know,but it would be one hell of a system.I can’t help but feel the 260s are not letting you hear all that the Dave/282 has to offer.

Thanks NQ, I agree..... I'm also hoping for dealers to discount the remaining old C2 speakers....  

Allan Probin posted:

If we're posting images of active ATC's, would it be ok if I posted a couple of gratuitous images of mine? Please excuse the extreme mongrelness of my system, avert your gaze those of a faint nature.

 

Did you ever compare your 19A with 40? At one point I seriously considered the option of moving from passive 40s to 19A. They’d be enough in my rather small listening room. How to replace nDAC + SN2 and reach the same level of sq without paying a fortune is my biggest concern in this move. I’m afraid active 40s are slightly out of my reach. 

The way Otto from Dyn was talking,the new C20 is better than the old C2s in some ways...but not all,bass I imagine.

The Confidence C2 is a superb speaker - for the price I think it gives speakers costing twice as much some tough competition. 

The way Dynaudio do active speakers with their Focus XD line though, is very compelling and a much better all in one solution than what ATC do.

Mr Frog posted:

Erm ..... perhaps the Dave isn’t Rob Watts Holy Grail after all 

Better stick to a Naim preamp into active ATC’s ????

You haven't heard?

Dave is not the holy grail...

Now it is Chord Blu2..... 

analogmusic posted:

The Confidence C2 is a superb speaker - for the price I think it gives speakers costing twice as much some tough competition. 

The way Dynaudio do active speakers with their Focus XD line though, is very compelling and a much better all in one solution than what ATC do.

I owned the C1 MK11s for a couple of years,and currently own XD 600s,but have not heard C2s.Honestly,I prefer listening to my current Sopra 1s with Naim stack over the XDs,both Fed from the N272.

analogmusic posted:

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

 

 

 

So, you haven’t heard ATC actives, but are basing your prejudice on active speakers from another manufacturer (Dynaudio and ??), drawing on the fact that you didn’t like them, and that they were a lot more expensive than the ATCs, to conclude that Naim amplification is the only way and inevitably must sound better than ATC’s amps (that you haven’t heard) actively driving ATC speakers (that you also haven’t heard even passively driven by Naim amp)’.

How bizarre!

Exactly ... this happened with Chord Hugo too ..... and then he bought one and said it was the Holy Graill

very weird

Give it 18-months and Analogmusic  will be the proud owner of a pair of ATC SCM 40 or 40A's.

He will then proceed to kneel at the hallowed alter of Billy Woodman, and pontificate about ATC and how everything else sounds broken.

Should we open a book on it?

Saul in the Bible comes to mind - though he was only converted once.

analogmusic posted:

I don't need/want to get into a debate over the role of a preamp.

Naim make the statement S1 preamp - and Linn and Chord say there's no need for the preamp.

My ears tell me Naim's approach is the correct one.

If your ears tell you otherwise, that is ok. 

I've read the ATC  article on active speakers a decade ago, but listening a a number of active speakers (far more expensive  than ATC) made me realise the source and preamp is where the magic happens..... 

 

 

 

Please correct me if i'm wrong analogue, but doesn't your Chord DAVE have a preamp built in which is extremely capable and transparent?

analogmusic posted:

The Confidence C2 is a superb speaker - for the price I think it gives speakers costing twice as much some tough competition. 

The way Dynaudio do active speakers with their Focus XD line though, is very compelling and a much better all in one solution than what ATC do.

analog
what active speakers did you listen to? You mention dynaudio focus xd , but which one ?
dynaudio focus xd is indeed a great integrated solution , but I'm sure you aware that any analog input is digitized. So it makes little sense to use something like Dave with it.
I also found you tried dac-v1 into dynaudio 110A.