Supernait 2, why 80 watts and not 90?

It's a question i have pondered as well,especially late at night,just before bed,

Sister xx

I think it would save a lot of hassle if Naim replaced their 70, 80 and 90W ratings with something like  Enough, Plenty, and Absolutely Loads. Numbers are so boring.

I have been singing the praises of the SN2 since I home auditioned one and finally purchased one. It punches well above it's weight, and is such an improvement over the SN1 as is so eloquently expressed in that article, and also in the What Hi-Fi review. It's a power house of an amp that can also show great finesse when required, it's quite an exceptional amp, and an exceptional buy! Add a HiCap DR and it can be all the system you need. I never feel the need to upgrade, that must mean something in this crazy hobby where everybody is constantly looking to improve their system, and are never satisfied. I honestly have never been disappointed in it connected to the various speakers I have heard it with, some speakers costing several times the cost of the amp. I think it's an amazing piece of kit.

because watts have not much to do with the Naim power hierarchy..... it isn't about the watts..... it's about transient current capabilities. you can ask naim for this and they will provide the numbers.

even the Nap 500 was designed as a bridged amp, but that was to reduce noise entering the signal earth from the return currents of the speaker cone, and the increase in power was incidental (it seems)

Power ratings are rather meaningless the most important power range of most amps is alleged to be the 'first watt' ... my own experience tells me that the first 25 to 30 watts are critical. Check out speaker efficiency you can get 90dB out of speaker for 1 watt. What is so critical is the transient reserve, all you are getting with a big amp is that ability to swing that current/voltage without the supply drooping. If you look at a NAP250 it has almost the same gain as a NAP500 .... yet when you listen to the 500 in comparison to the 250 you can tell immediately. ... The SN2 is a fine amp with a huge psu for an integrated ... don't worry about ratings it's for the brochures....enjoy!!!

I think if you're looking at power in this regard the output of the transformer is important. Naim used to state the VA of their transformers on their webpage but seem to have gotten away from that. Another indication is to compare ratings of watts into 8 ohms, then into 4 ohms. If the watts double into 4 ohms, it's a sign of hefty transformer output with great headroom to meet transient impacts. Also an indication that the amp will supply quality power during demanding passages without overheating at high volumes. 

The SN2 is rated at 80 watts into 8 ohms, and 130 watts into 4 ohms. Perhaps why Naim didn't rate it as a 90 watt amp. Not to suggest the SN2 is not a hefty 80 watt amp, it is. Mine always performed well at any volume, always with commanding attack and control of bass.

Also sensitivity in your loudspeakers should be factored in.If you where useing 94 dB + loudspeakers a 20 watt amp would be a harmonious combination.A mate of mine uses 8 Watt Single Ended Triode monoblocks with large Focals and can get very loud SPL levels with no loss of transient slam and soundstage.

The SN2 is actually rated at 140 watts into a 4ohm load, put out an actual156 watts into a 4ohm load in that review, a little more than the 250-2 DR did.

Being modest about lists of attributes is considered a good thing. ......Although it does have a "Super".

What really matters is that first watt and how much is in reserve to swing into those transient 1 ohms. 

The difference between 80 and 90 W is less than 0.5dB, i.e. well below the discrimination limit of human hearing!

I suggest a different rating

"Sufficient"

Sister E. posted:

It's a question i have pondered as well,especially late at night,just before bed,

You're lucky - I haven't had any use for the bedroom since the model came out.

Sleep is entirely fugitive.

Huge posted:

The difference between 80 and 90 W is less than 0.5dB, i.e. well below the discrimination limit of human hearing!
I suggest a different rating "Sufficient"

In the context of the present discussion (amp power), this suggests that folks listen to music at the maximum output of their amps capabilities which is not practicable. It also suggest folks are using a single speaker; the output (dB) would double with two speakers and depends on frequency. Higher frequencies would be heard louder, bottom frequencies less so, which feeds into the notion of higher powered amps providing better bass grip when played at normal or "sufficient" listening volumes. All things being equal, I'll take the extra 10 watts of amplification despite never approaching the amp's maximum sustainable dB output.

Joe, for better 'grip' what you want is higher current output and faster current rise times from the output stage of the amp rather than just more power; the power output figure doesn't actually define that.  In any given range of amps, the ones with higher power ratings are usually more expensive and higher quality - that's why they deliver current better, and control speakers better.

A case in point, a 250DR has the same power rating as a SN2, but gives better control of the speakers.
The RMS power rating is irrelevant to quality - all it controls is the maximum volume available (all other things being equal).

Huge posted:

Joe, for better 'grip' what you want is higher current output and faster current rise times from the output stage of the amp rather than just more power; the power output figure doesn't actually define that.  In any given range of amps, the ones with higher power ratings are usually more expensive and higher quality - that's why they deliver current better, and control speakers better.

A case in point, a 250DR has the same power rating as a SN2, but gives better control of the speakers.
The RMS power rating is irrelevant to quality - all it controls is the maximum volume available (all other things being equal).

I completely agree Huge that the 250 DR controls speakers better than SN2,I owned the SN2 for a couple of years,I now have the 250 DR.The SN2 struggled with my (then) Dyn C1’s,the 250 DR had much better control at low to high volumes.I am sure Badlands will be here soon to dispute that,but it is reality,I am sorry to say.

I won't dispute what you hear, but the reality is the SN2 and the 250-2 DR, as far as I know, both use the same torrid transformer and both have, I believe, the same amount of reserve capacitance. They both swing the same amount of 400VA. Both amps power measured out almost exactly the same in tests conducted by professional reviewers into loads of 8, 4 and 2ohms. As a matter of fact, the SN2 actually put out a few more watts into 8ohm loads. So if there is better control of certain speakers, like No Quarter is expressing, then what I am suggesting is that other things may have come into play. But as far as one being able to drive difficult speakers better than the other, I personally have not experienced it, and I had owned a 250-2 based system for years prior to my current system.

My experience is that the SN2 has never struggled with any speaker that was connected to it that I tried, and neither did the 250.2 I had. I also have used both amps with several Dynaudio speakers I have owned.

In that review from the Hi-Fi Critic, Martin Colloms is quoted as saying. "Frankly it sounded rather more powerful and of higher quality than many substantially more expensive amplifiers, and happily drove my Wilson Sophia 3s as if made for the job."

So, I guess I will have to just say we'll never see eye to eye in this matter, but I still stand by my personal observations, and that is, if the SN2 will struggle with certain speakers, then it's entirely probable that the 250.2DR will also.

I take it from that you don't quite understand the advantage that full regulation provides to power-amps.

One more thing I would like to clarify is that I am not saying the SN2 is a better amp than the 250-2, IT IS NOT A BETTER AMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which one offers better value? That is entirely up to the buyer.

Oh, I understand it, but it has absolutely nothing to do with how powerful an amp is, or how it deals with difficult loads better then non regulated amps!!!!

Badlands,have you tried your SN2 with C1’s versus a 250 DR with C1’s?,I have,and stand by what I said.I am not trying to start a battle here,just telling people what I heard at my home.I have no idea why the 250 has more control,but it sure did for me.

Yes I agree with the value point.

However, all other things being equal, a power amp will deal with difficult loads better if it's given an appropriate regulated power supply than if it has an unregulated power supply; even if using the same transformer - that's the very point about regulated amps, it's why they exist at all!

No battle, just that your experience differs from mine. And to be honest, this is what I believe these forums are for, no animosity, just difference of opinions.

I've learnt that there's little weight worth placing on these amp ratings.  I first discovered this when discovering the A&R A60 with its 'tiny' (sic) 30wpc.  Years later, when my 100wpc power amp packed up I tried a few at home. It was very clear that a 200wpc amp I tried actually had less ability to drive my speakers than a Chord amp rated at only 130wpc.  I was happy with Chord amp for quite a while. Then one day I compared it directly to a 250.2, which on paper had a lot less power.  To use a car analogy, the 250.2 made the Chord feel like it still had the hand-brake applied.  As well as sonically superior, the 250.2 sounded considered 'beefier' .  If someone was asked, which of these two amps is the more powerful? the 250.2 would have been picked every time.  

Huge posted:

Yes I agree with the value point.

However, all other things being equal, a power amp will deal with difficult loads better if it's given an appropriate regulated power supply than if it has an unregulated power supply; even if using the same transformer - that's the very point about regulated amps, it's why they exist at all!

Sorry, but can you remind me again what is a regulated power supply ? Is it just simply turning the AC to DC,  Bipolar, or is it more than that ?

A regulated power supply uses electronics to stabilise the voltage (and current) available from the power supply irrespective of the actual load.

For instance a power supply for a power amp may be designed to give +/-45V nominal.

An unregulated power supply may give +/-47V when there's little volume, but when the amp is working hard the supply voltage may drop to +/-43V.

With a regulated power supply it would be more like +/-45.2V when there's little volume, but when the amp is working hard the supply voltage will still drop a bit but nowhere near as much for instance it could remain as high as +/-44.5V even at max power output.

The regulated power supply gives much more stable operating conditions for the power amp.

There's one thing I would like to add to the above explanation, while a regulated amp may be more stable, and may sound better in absolute terms, which has more to do with less noise than any power advantage, it is also possible that it sounds more reserved when compared to a non regulated amp of the same power ratings, the dynamics can sound in check.

This may or may not apply to Naim amps, but it definitely can be a possibility.