Low volume listening

A lot of speakers need a bit of volume to come alive, and 20 is pretty quiet, so it’s perhaps not surprising. I’ve never heard the Blades, but matching a £16,000 speaker with a £4,000 all in one would not be my choice, with or without the 250 to biamp. Before spending more money I’d try some alternative speakers that both match your electronics and work well at low volumes. 

Alternative speakers is one approach. The other would be greater power. The Blades are 4 ohm speakers rated up to 400 watts. It may sound counterintuitive, but you'll get more satisfying low volume listening with greater amplification. In your case, probably much greater amplification. So the choice becomes do you want to stick with the Blades and seek a bigger amp, or stick with the Nova/250 and look for different speakers?

Hi Kristian,

I have spent decades resisting my wife's, and then my daughters, suggestions that a little less volume would be sensible.

M

Thank you...yes I did wonder if that may be a solution.

I got the blades ex demo and I was completely smitten in the dealers by their soundstaging...I've never heard anything comparable. So I would love to keep them.

I am living in Madrid which restricts my future demos a little.....is a 300dr a big enough step? Do I take out the Nova completely and go for two 250/300 ?

I'm also conscious that if I go all the way to 500dr I could just be exposing the front end limitations...

Many thanks

Hungryhalibut posted:

A lot of speakers need a bit of volume to come alive, and 20 is pretty quiet, so it’s perhaps not surprising. I’ve never heard the Blades, but matching a £16,000 speaker with a £4,000 all in one would not be my choice, with or without the 250 to biamp. Before spending more money I’d try some alternative speakers that both match your electronics and work well at low volumes. 

As is well documented around here I’m far from a source first disciple but I do agree with HH that this does not appear to be very well matched.   Were you able to try the Blades in your room?  I guess not? Absolutely essential particularly with a speaker of that value.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Unfortunately not due to my location in madrid....but when i demoed in far from ideal setup in the shop they were spellbinding.....and indeed they are when pushed a little at home.

I was choosing between 803d3 and the blades but I read reviews that the B&W tended to need more volume to come alive.

I am very very happy overall, so was just looking for that final tenth.

If the solution could be more muscle I can stretch but I don't want to spend money and not get gains in the area I am looking for.

Thankyou for you thoughts

Madrid eh? And there was me thinking you lived in Leamington....

Buying expensive demanding speakers and then trying to feed them is a classic scenario that rarely ends well. It sounds as though you don’t have a lot of experience at putting together hifi systems, and that perhaps you would have been just as smitten with a more modest speaker, properly driven. I’d seriously question a dealer selling you the Blades with a Nova. If you really insist on keeping them, you are going to have to remedy the electronics. You are right - a 500 with a Nova is not really a good idea, and the fact that you mention a £20,000 amp to drive the speakers you got as an ex-dem bargain illustrates the point I made above. If you are willing to spend the money, something like a NDS, 252 and 300 system, with its power supplies, would be more appropriate. The new NDX2 is arriving in the summer of course. Another approach would be a 272/555 with 300. Alternatively, a more muscular integrated amp, maybe something like a Plinius, with a Naim streamer such as the new NDX2 could be a way to go. 

It all depends on whether you want to keep the speakers, and how much you are willing to spend. It’s probably worth some time at a dealer trying options, even if it means a weekend in Leamington. 

Well I have no knowledge of the Blades but I would have envisaged that that level of speakers would have required at least a 272/XPS/300 to bring out the best of them.   Don’t underestimate the role the pre amp plays in providing the staging for a high-end speaker.  But whether this would resolve your low level listening I’m afraid I cannot be certain.  

Regards,

Lindsay

People should not forget that sound quality and system balance is an aspect of a system. There are more aspects, like how the system integrates in the living, how it (in my case) is kids proof, how the visual design is.

SQ is important, but only one aspect.

I made the crazy decision last year to buy active Ovators, knowingly that it takes me 10 years to build the entire system around it. Am I crazy? Probably. But it sounds really nice actually on my lowly SuperNait.

One of my dealers has Kef Blades on demo with a N272 and a Nap 250. He would not do that if it wasn't a good match.

I do think that you are in a good situation. You have the loudspeakers you like (and that is one of the most important things in our audiophile world), it sounds good. You are pole positioned to upgrade. Get first the 300, then pray for the successor of the N272, and then add the powersupply.

It makes more sense than a BMW in Madrid.

Hi in my experience - I found a really good sub made a profound difference - at very low levels - I simply turn the sub up a little - it makes a huge difference....and music is so much more enjoyable.

I have yet to find a speaker that works well at both low & high volume,  some are better than others but none that I have heard do it all.    Low volume invariably fails to produce the dynamics & the flat frequency  response needed, in the bass end in particular,  to get the excitement of the same recording played at higher volume.     I agree with Richieroo that a does sub help,  but considering the Blade bass driver configuration,  I'm not too sure about that.  I see from the Stereophile review that they go flat to 30Hz, so a sub might be a little OTT. 

Hi Mike it would help ....... as the Blade speaker will be flat to around 30hz .... however at low level the ear is inefficient - so if you have a really good sub you can turn it up to compensate - usually by around 5-6 db at very low level. However, it will never fully compensate for the general lively nature with a system going in its stride. You would be looking at something like a Velodyne DD12+ - you need room compensation..... 

Yes I'm aware of how it can help Ricieroo,  I go back a long way with speakers designing & building.    I've played around with this problem in the past,  including active crossovers.     Active xovers aside,  with the separate volume control of a sub its does a lot to compensate in the low end,  problem is the lower volume sound still lacks the dynamics & sparkle in the top end.   My current speakers are voiced for a specific rear wall proximity & to be in room flat at my normal serious listening volume,  this gives an OK response at low/back ground but is a touch over blown if pushed to what some people listen at;  but whatever for me its works but is still a compromise. 

       Interestingly on a similar subject,   I'm looking at a house move in the longer future & intend to go active when this happens,  With this in mind I've been checking out ATC SCM19A & 40A's,  these seem to work exceptionally well at both ends of the normal volume range,  not gone into the ATC amplifier design but suspect they have something that includes volume compensation.  

I am also interested in low volume listening. Is this seriously even achievable? I have a Star and Dynaudio S40, but listening at low volume really lose all interest. I find it hard that adding a power amplifier will improve things. Or maybe I am wrong. 

I google a lot for low volume listening and it seems like it is not achievable. Very hopeful I am wrong. As I am willing to try out 272/250DR next for my S40.

The subwoofer approach is also one that I repeatedly hear ppl mention with regards to low volume listening that I did not get from dealer. They just mention get a better power amplifier. Nobody mention getting a good sub for low volume listening.. 

mech posted:

The subwoofer approach is also one that I repeatedly hear ppl mention with regards to low volume listening that I did not get from dealer. They just mention get a better power amplifier. Nobody mention getting a good sub for low volume listening.. 

The problem is the human ear has a variable sensitivity that falls off at lower volumes;  that cannot be compensated for with more power amps.   

I see.. I thought it is because the sub take away the job of producing the low frequency from the bookshelf speaker and thus allowing the speaker to provide more low listening energy!!?? 

Kristian G posted:

Thank you...yes I did wonder if that may be a solution.

I got the blades ex demo and I was completely smitten in the dealers by their soundstaging...I've never heard anything comparable. So I would love to keep them.

I am living in Madrid which restricts my future demos a little.....is a 300dr a big enough step? Do I take out the Nova completely and go for two 250/300 ?

I'm also conscious that if I go all the way to 500dr I could just be exposing the front end limitations...

Many thanks

 

It seem soundstage is high in your priorities, why not get a good pair of headphones which perform stages well, for late night listening.

The subwoofer approach really works ...... however, the cheaper ones I tried were dire ..... the Velodyne DD+ was a revelation - I cannot speak highly enough - I also gather the SVS Ultra series are pretty good. My recommendation is stick with a sealed box don't go too big - and get one with plenty of power - room DSP is essential. I tried REL and just could not get a subtle integration - on my setup you cannot hear the sub - all the bass appears to come out of the stereo speakers......you simply do not know what bass is until you have one of these suckers...... if you have enough cash two would be better (I would love to try the DD18+ see the you tube clips). I notice that Steve Sells (Mr Naim) uses subwoofers in his home setup.........

This topic highlights the importance of correct system/speaker and room matching 

Maybe I struck lucky but I think it was more to do with the time spent with my dealer listening to systems and taking his advice on system matching (and using my own ears) that I ended up purchasing the system as in my profile several years ago originally with a 250dr and stock cables.  I was very pleased  with the system at all listening levels, low listening level qualities were particularly impressive plus it will rattle the window panes when required.

After changing to a 300dr last year the extra grip and control the 300dr offers has brought massive all round improvements low level listening has been taken to another level.

I would take the approach as suggested by HH just take your time as I did.

Kristian, have you tried moving your speakers nearer to the back wall?  It is a good solution to compensate for low frequency loss at low level listening but it may somewhat affect soundstaging.

You may try a speaker setup guide like '' Audiophile Speaker Setup '' from hdtracks or other sources before spending money on more powerful amplifiers.

By any means, do not go for inferior loudspeakers! 

Yes moving speakers back to wall at low volumes works.....to a degree - that is worth a try.

Pcd posted:

This topic highlights the importance of correct system/speaker and room matching 

Maybe I struck lucky but I think it was more to do with the time spent with my dealer listening to systems and taking his advice on system matching (and using my own ears) that I ended up purchasing the system as in my profile several years ago originally with a 250dr and stock cables.  I was very pleased  with the system at all listening levels, low listening level qualities were particularly impressive plus it will rattle the window panes when required.

After changing to a 300dr last year the extra grip and control the 300dr offers has brought massive all round improvements low level listening has been taken to another level.

I would take the approach as suggested by HH just take your time as I did.

 

May i ask what kind of music are you listening to?

Hi PCD i had a look at the D7 lab report on Stereophile .... yep that speaker is very strong at the bottom end - from the measures there is slight bass lift below 100hz with quite a strong response below 50hz ..... so I fully understand that (by the way it gets a great review) well placed in a suitable room that is an awesome bit of kit. 

As I have upgraded cables; I have found that very low level detail has improved along with very low volume listening enjoyment.