Low volume listening

leni v posted:

Pcd posted:

This topic highlights the importance of correct system/speaker and room matching 

Maybe I struck lucky but I think it was more to do with the time spent with my dealer listening to systems and taking his advice on system matching (and using my own ears) that I ended up purchasing the system as in my profile several years ago originally with a 250dr and stock cables.  I was very pleased  with the system at all listening levels, low listening level qualities were particularly impressive plus it will rattle the window panes when required.

After changing to a 300dr last year the extra grip and control the 300dr offers has brought massive all round improvements low level listening has been taken to another level.

I would take the approach as suggested by HH just take your time as I did.

 

May i ask what kind of music are you listening to?

I listen to quite a variety of music 60 to 90s pop, Country,Bluegrass,Folk/Celtic a bit of R&B and Light Jazz particularly fond of female vocal but I've found as the system gets better I enjoy a wider genre of music.

 Thanks.

Richieroo posted:

Hi PCD i had a look at the D7 lab report on Stereophile .... yep that speaker is very strong at the bottom end - from the measures there is slight bass lift below 100hz with quite a strong response below 50hz ..... so I fully understand that (by the way it gets a great review) well placed in a suitable room that is an awesome bit of kit. 

Richieroo, to be fair the D7s weren't really on my radar when I started looking to replace my Olive system after listening to some other speakers which I didn't like much the dealer suggested I try the D7s and to be truthful I was very pleasantly surprised and shocked on how much I enjoyed them they are a bit bigger and were bit more money than I anticipated to pay for speakers.

The dealer offered a long term demo after he had installed the new black boxes and they fitted in well with the room dimensions and placement. The house was built in the 1930s and four of the rooms have a fairly deep chimney breast so the speakers are placed either side in the lounge and can be pulled well out from the back wall without encroaching into the room the set up works well.

The whole system works very well together the completion of the S/L loom and a new rack in the latter part of last year improved things again I thought this was the final part the jigsaw then Naim had to go and spoil it with the release of the new streamers

When I visited Bristol show in 2017 - one of the speakers that really impressed me were the little Spendor A2's they sounded so natural and relaxed but punchy as well - I think your speakers are a real find given your room and setup - well done - its a bit of a lottery finding the right dealer.

At a guess you’re using the 250 on the bass drivers but which ever way round the amps are try it the other way.

Get a new girlfriend

Like the Blades, I'm rather find of them ????

Please forgive me I have no experience of the equipment you are discussing ,but for some one who only has a nait 2 and standmounts    You can learn to listen at low levels ,it’s a bit like with patients your eyes get used to the dark

lyndon posted:

Get a new girlfriend

 

Have you seen her?!

Many thanks for all the contributions....except the gf one obviously ????

Yes the 250 is on the bass....I'll experiment...I've also got clearway rca connecting the Nova to the 250.....so I can also try the standard Din connector....

Moving the speakers back and forth is my third experiments....

While the sub appears a popular choice, to be honest it's as much about loss of top end detail that I'm losing.

Pcd posted:

Richieroo posted:

Hi PCD i had a look at the D7 lab report on Stereophile .... yep that speaker is very strong at the bottom end - from the measures there is slight bass lift below 100hz with quite a strong response below 50hz ..... so I fully understand that (by the way it gets a great review) well placed in a suitable room that is an awesome bit of kit. 

Richieroo, to be fair the D7s weren't really on my radar when I started looking to replace my Olive system after listening to some other speakers which I didn't like much the dealer suggested I try the D7s and to be truthful I was very pleasantly surprised and shocked on how much I enjoyed them they are a bit bigger and were bit more money than I anticipated to pay for speakers.

The dealer offered a long term demo after he had installed the new black boxes and they fitted in well with the room dimensions and placement. The house was built in the 1930s and four of the rooms have a fairly deep chimney breast so the speakers are placed either side in the lounge and can be pulled well out from the back wall without encroaching into the room the set up works well.

The whole system works very well together the completion of the S/L loom and a new rack in the latter part of last year improved things again I thought this was the final part the jigsaw then Naim had to go and spoil it with the release of the new streamers

 

 

Hi PCD what astounded me was the difference that a full fat Fraim made to the low listening level of my system with D7's. It improved them considerably. The latest firmware update for my streamer has also improved the low level listening even further. Just recently I had the the Focal Kanta's on home dem followed by the Sopra 2's and it makes you realise just how good the D7's really are. I think i'll be upgrading the amp and speaker cable before I change the speakers although I am tempted to try the Kudos Titan 606's at home after hearing them at at dealers with the same system that I have.

Dougie Danger posted:

Pcd posted:

Richieroo posted:

Hi PCD i had a look at the D7 lab report on Stereophile .... yep that speaker is very strong at the bottom end - from the measures there is slight bass lift below 100hz with quite a strong response below 50hz ..... so I fully understand that (by the way it gets a great review) well placed in a suitable room that is an awesome bit of kit. 

Richieroo, to be fair the D7s weren't really on my radar when I started looking to replace my Olive system after listening to some other speakers which I didn't like much the dealer suggested I try the D7s and to be truthful I was very pleasantly surprised and shocked on how much I enjoyed them they are a bit bigger and were bit more money than I anticipated to pay for speakers.

The dealer offered a long term demo after he had installed the new black boxes and they fitted in well with the room dimensions and placement. The house was built in the 1930s and four of the rooms have a fairly deep chimney breast so the speakers are placed either side in the lounge and can be pulled well out from the back wall without encroaching into the room the set up works well.

The whole system works very well together the completion of the S/L loom and a new rack in the latter part of last year improved things again I thought this was the final part the jigsaw then Naim had to go and spoil it with the release of the new streamers

 

 

Hi PCD what astounded me was the difference that a full fat Fraim made to the low listening level of my system with D7's. It improved them considerably. The latest firmware update for my streamer has also improved the low level listening even further. Just recently I had the the Focal Kanta's on home dem followed by the Sopra 2's and it makes you realise just how good the D7's really are. I think i'll be upgrading the amp and speaker cable before I change the speakers although I am tempted to try the Kudos Titan 606's at home after hearing them at at dealers with the same system that I have.

Dougie, looking at your profile I assume you will be going for the NAP 300dr this was probable the best single upgrade I made until you've heard the D7s on the end of a 300dr you won't realise what they are truly capable of. Make no mistake to 250dr is a superb amplifier but the 300dr is on a totally different level in my system simply stunning

Glad the firmware update has made a difference my dealer is calling in next Tuesday to update my NDX. hopefully I should get the same result.

Depending what exactly is meant by low volume, we all having different ideas of what is low, it seems to me that this is a classic case of the argument for what used to be called a ‘loudness’ control - bass and top end lift at low volumes. Properly done - which would mean proportional to volume and not just a fixed boost switched in (and keyed to the actual cound level at the listening position, rathervthan a volume control setting), the improvement it could give at low volumes could be greater than any deterioration of the sound caused by the circuitry.

To me, it would be a very logical thing for a manufacturer of high quality gear to introduce, operating only atblower levels. And digital systems - which includes the Nova on analog inputs - should lend themselves to something quite clever done with DSP.

But as it stands, the answer is obvious - don’t play at too low a volume: and if the newly living in GF can’t hear the benefit, some earplugs might make a good present...

Have you tried NOT bi-amping, just using the 250DR in singe wired mode may well work better at low volumes (make up jumper cables from speaker wire for the speakers, or even better use a 'F' connection at the speaker end).

To get the advantage of using two power-amps you need to move to a system with an active crossover; passive bi-amping is very unpredictable and rarely worth the extra expense.  If you can arrange an active crossover and remove the passive crossovers from the speakers this may work really well, but you may have to do an enormous amount of technical work to make an active crossover work properly with your speakers)

You say that the problem is lack of detail on the HF yet you have the higher quality power-amp on the bass-mid drivers - this should tell you something.

Stop the bi-amping and just use the 250DR (or even better a 300DR, it has amazing resolution and is particularly good at low volumes).  Don't be at all distracted by RMS power output - it's completely irrelevant at the volumes you are trying to use.

If this doesn't work then you'll have to change the speakers.

Huge posted:

Have you tried NOT bi-amping, just using the 250DR in singe wired mode may well work better at low volumes (make up jumper cables from speaker wire for the speakers, or even better use a 'F' connection at the speaker end).

To get the advantage of using two power-amps you need to move to a system with an active crossover; passive bi-amping is very unpredictable and rarely worth the extra expense.  If you can arrange an active crossover and remove the passive crossovers from the speakers this may work really well, but you may have to do an enormous amount of technical work to make an active crossover work properly with your speakers)

You say that the problem is lack of detail on the HF yet you have the higher quality power-amp on the bass-mid drivers - this should tell you something.

Stop the bi-amping and just use the 250DR (or even better a 300DR, it has amazing resolution and is particularly good at low volumes).  Don't be at all distracted by RMS power output - it's completely irrelevant at the volumes you are trying to use.

If this doesn't work then you'll have to change the speakers.

 

Huge, very much in agreement having changed from a 250dr to a 300dr last year so much more resolution low level listening is superb.

.....but.....adding a 300DR just pushes you even deeper into mullet territory. Good though the Nova is, even a 250 really deserves a better source and preamp to give it’s best. 

Adding a £7.5k amp to £16k speakers doesn't really make it any more of a mullet, particularly as then at least the complex load from the high end speakers won't be dragging down the performance of a less able power amp.

Huge posted:

Have you tried NOT bi-amping, just using the 250DR in singe wired mode may well work better at low volumes (make up jumper cables from speaker wire for the speakers, or even better use a 'F' connection at the speaker end).

To get the advantage of using two power-amps you need to move to a system with an active crossover; passive bi-amping is very unpredictable and rarely worth the extra expense.  If you can arrange an active crossover and remove the passive crossovers from the speakers this may work really well, but you may have to do an enormous amount of technical work to make an active crossover work properly with your speakers)

You say that the problem is lack of detail on the HF yet you have the higher quality power-amp on the bass-mid drivers - this should tell you something.

Stop the bi-amping and just use the 250DR (or even better a 300DR, it has amazing resolution and is particularly good at low volumes).  Don't be at all distracted by RMS power output - it's completely irrelevant at the volumes you are trying to use.

If this doesn't work then you'll have to change the speakers.

That's an interesting point....I had made an assumption that splitting the hf and lf load across 2 similar amps would improve the sound quality.

If that is a potential way forward then I will need a system overhaul...out with the Nova, in with new streamer and pre amp and perhaps 300dr......

Mike-B posted:

mech posted:

The subwoofer approach is also one that I repeatedly hear ppl mention with regards to low volume listening that I did not get from dealer. They just mention get a better power amplifier. Nobody mention getting a good sub for low volume listening.. 

The problem is the human ear has a variable sensitivity that falls off at lower volumes;  that cannot be compensated for with more power amps.   

I think Mike-B has hit the nail on the head here. I don’t think any system rebalancing will properly address what is really a problem with the human listener, perceived as less enjoyment listening at low levels. Why do we turn up the volume? Is it not for a more exciting experience?

Hi

i just saw this post

i have wondered about this very issue for many years. I have lived in a flat, and now have young kids that wake up easily.

the solution is sound treatment. Get several acoustic panels from GIK or someone cheaper.

think about the physics of sound and don’t spend on expensive  upgrades until you have treated your listening room first

Speakers that have somewhat complex drivers and crossovers might need more watts to wake up.

TOBYJUG posted:

Speakers that have somewhat complex drivers and crossovers might need more watts to wake up.

Not sure there is anything to support that?

I still think my ‘loudness’ argument is the applicable one here.

How about higher sensitivity speakers? could this not be another and possibly cheaper solution?

Mind you having said that, I can see the difficulty in letting speakers go that one has become smitten with, so there probably isn't going to be cheap option here.

I agree with the point Huge made earlier in that going back to just single wiring with one stereo power amp is worth trying or upping the ante for a more powerful 'single' power amplifier and a higher (up the ladder)  pre-amp too boot.

But isn't this trying to build a system up backwards..?

Stephen Tate posted:

How about higher sensitivity speakers? could this not be another and possibly cheaper solution?

I can’t see how higher sensitivity speakers would help (other than that they would sound different just as any othe speaker would, and one might sound better than another). What higher sensitivity would do is mean the volume control would set be even lower for the low sound level the OP wants, and any noise from the power amp through the speskers - hiss and possibly hum - would increase in volume relative to the music, so actually decreasing sound quality. (If the problem was at high level listening, then higher sensitivity speakers might help, depending on the cause of the problem.)

I hadn’t picked up on the passive bi-amping when I wrote my first response. I have never really understood passive bi-amping, even more so with two amps feeding a three-way speaker, and it is possible that something undesirable is happening, Maybe compounded with amps having non-identical characteristics. As others have suggested, it makes every sense to try with a single amp, using the best one - which is almost an instant thing to do, simply disconnecting the other at the speaker terminals and refitting the links, and if that fixes the problem then end of story.

But if the issue then remains, it seems to me that there are three possibilities, assuming that all sounds great at higher sound levels:-

1) the speakers are not reproducing well the signal fed to them when at low levels - if that is the case, then the only answer is different speakers. Maybe some dealer demos at those same low listening levels will help you decide if the issue is confined to your speakers themselves.

2) the power amp is behaving poorly at low level- if that is the case, then the only answer is different power amp. However, this seems unlikely as problems with power amps tend much more to be with high levels.

3) the music is losing its frequency extremes, due to the reducing sensitivity of the human ear at high low frequencies as sound level reduces, the loss of bass being particularly evident. If this is the cause of the problem, the only solution is an artificial boost of the frequency extremes to compensate - loudness compensation, as I described in an earlier post. This may be anathema to the purist audiophile, but then it could be argued that listening at levels lower than music would be at a live performance is false, and all it is doing is compensating for the consequence of so doing. A simple manual approach is to use a digital signal processor inserted in the signal path, and factor in some boost until it sounds right to your ears. A few seconds of Googling will find you the charts showing what the ear’s fall-off in sensitivity looks like, the boost needed would be seeking to produce the reverse curve, though something vaguely approximate is likely to suffice. If you can borrow one you’d soon discover if it fixes the problem.

or just turn the volume up...

Hi Kristian,

Greetings from New York City. In your situation, the very first thing I'd do is go directly to the Mercado San Miguel, get a bottle of wine and some tapas de queso, and after that I'd get some more wine and perhaps some navajas a la plancha, and then I'd be happy, and I'd be in the right frame of mind to face the problem with which you are stuck, and for which there is only one lubricant: Euros. (That, or getting cheaper speakers.)

I think a 252 or 282, along with your 250, would be far better than what you've got. (I agree with the others that bi-amping is the road to hell.) But since you say you're missing some high-frequency information, I'd consider a Chord DAC instead of one from Naim, which I've always found to have a darker presentation.

Lastly, to those who've recommended dealing with the room itself: while one can hardly go wrong with room treatments, aren't diffusers and suchlike the prescription for too much information (i.e bass boom and spitty treble), rather than too little, as is the case here?

--Joe