Vinyl - back to the future?

I would recommend if you decide to go vinyl again to get a newer RP6 level deck 

Buy pre loved and if it doesn't work out for you ..it will be easier to sell on

Don't underestimate the SWMBO factor with records...even a 300 collection takes up a lot of space in the listening room and is seldom something a partner welcomes !!

You can’t go wrong with an LP12.

Speak to your nearest Linn dealer - Ray at Grahams in North London is a legend - and get whatever 2nd deal takes your fancy. Enjoy!

Hi Yetizone

180g vinyl isn't an absolute. This is on the inner sleeve of my recent copy of Emerson Lake & Palmer's Works vinyl. The first is from Greg Lake, the second from Helmut Brinkmann.

“To all friends of vinyl.

Ever since producing and recording with King Crimson and ELP, it has been my personal goal to achieve the best possible sound quality and that remains true to this day.

Regarding the audio reproduction quality on vinyl, the popular perception for some time has been that the best sound quality is achieved by using 180gsm weight. The reality, however, is that particularly when using modern decks, the best audio quality is actually achieved using the lighter 140gsm weight. I am honestly not sure why this trend of using heavyweight vinyl came about? Probably because of the ‘more equals better’ in the world we live in. However, in the interests of delivering the best quality audio to our fans we have decided to go for quality rather than quantity.

Just to underpin the above vinyl quality issue, here below is a short explanation/statement  from Mr. Helmut Brinkmann of Brinkmann Audio, a leading authority on this subject.”

Greg Lake, 2016

“180 or 200 grams records often don’t sound as good as the thinner ones. In my opinion this comes from the massive acrylic material. As this is plastic of quite some softness, it reacts in the form of resonances during the tracking process.

As good as the recorded music may sound, the plastic sound of vinyl does not…. the music is disturbed by those resonances.

Though the thicker record may be stiffer than a thinner one, the resonances are heavier because of the sheer mass of the material (which is not that stiff compared to the dynamic tracking forces).

We know that the needle is accelerated to a few G gravity, and that causes back force resonances in the vinyl material. The more vinyl is under the needle the more these resonances can arise.”

Helmut Brinkmann, 2016

Japtimscarlet posted:

I would recommend if you decide to go vinyl again to get a newer RP6 level deck 

Buy pre loved and if it doesn't work out for you ..it will be easier to sell on

Don't underestimate the SWMBO factor with records...even a 300 collection takes up a lot of space in the listening room and is seldom something a partner welcomes !!

Store them in a nice solid oak cabinet - SWMBO approval factor positive. Good that she likes LPs but won’t touch the LP12 - cantilever snapping phobia I had my first LP12 back in 1988 and went for an ex-dem Klimax LP12 around 2-3 years ago. It came with a Khan top plate and I had the Tranquility fitted too - a worthwhile improvement I think. I must admit that if I hadn’t bought into Linn so long ago I might just be looking at a Rega.

l never gave up on vinyl and still buy the odd discs. The latest Supercut and Speakers Corner discs are very good as are the reproduction sleeves.

I’d go for a Rega - RP6 or higher. Their Aria phono-stage is also wonderful - will accept MM or MC carts.  

My impression is  that some of the  master tapes have suffered over the decades. That may be a lot of what's wrong with newer releases of older stuff. Enjoy what you have for now and think about a good record cleaner.

Don't underestimate the importance of what the TT sits on.

I agree that recent re-releases aren't what we ought to expect and that thinner vinyl records do seem to be better than 180g. That impression may be coloured by the fact that most of my older records are relatively thin, and almost every modern re-release is 180g and the older ones often sound better. The other issue is that re-releases are usually remastered and the new masters are invariably mixed in the digital domain.

I placed a link to a BBC programme about remastering on another thread entitled 'Would a sound engineer release distorted vocals' or something similar. That explains the process of baking the older master tapes. 

I should go for an Lp12,....IF,...you have a good dealer not so long from were you live.Remember that if you shall have the best out of your LP12, you shall have it in for service every 12 month.

Also think about what you get/buy,in this days it is out so many pre-loved LP12's with third parts in it. Will you have that, or an original one?

I should go for an original one,have listen to so many with third parts in it,different....but not better. Often cleaner or/and clearer but less in musicality. And in the long run musicality winns,it's because of musicality you can listen hour after hour and wan't stop.

Many here in Sweden thinks an pre-circus is better than the newer ones if we talk musicality,it's importent that you listen for yourself.Contact a good dealer who can do different demos for you,and if you find a used one.....let your dealer check it before you buy it.....so you know what you are buying....and set it up with the right parts in it.

Lejonklou Hifi has very good MM-phonostage,you can also find this on the pre-loved market.....or you can find an old Linn LK1 pre, and only use the phonostage. It has both MM and MC and are still very,very good. You can also recapp it ( LK1),we have done that ....and I can say that it's much better after the recapp. I think ClassA do this.❗ 

Much to think about,but an LP12 is always an LP12.I see in your profile that you have had one earlier.....so you know what I'm talking about ????.

/Peder???? 

The phono stage in your CB NAIT 2 is fine and a good place to start out. Pick a suitable MM for your deck/arm of choice.  A-Ts traditionally work well with Naim.

As for vinyl, 140g may be a sweet spot.  Certainly the Acony 140g pressings are some of the nicest I've heard recently.  However, nothing is quite like the old translucent Japanese virgin vinyl that was used on those lovely Canadian Half-speeds from A&M, or the gorgeous thin Nimbus pressings from the '80s.

Well this is all down to budget.    I wouldn’t go for an LP12.  I’d seek a good Rega with as Richard suggests an AT MM.   Job done.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Peder posted:

I should go for an Lp12,....IF,...you have a good dealer not so long from were you live.Remember that if you shall have the best out of your LP12, you shall have it in for service every 12 month.

 

A correctly set up LP12 doesn't need a service every year.  Most people have the deck checked over when they have a new cartridge fitted.

This is what I've done since 1989 and not had any issues.

i'd head over to Cymbiosis and listen to the various contenders ...then have Peter build you a nice LP12!

Thanks for all help with turntable choices everyone. The nearest Linn dealer is just over an hour away, so certainly a commitment for deck maintenance, although not a horrendous drive. If I went down this route, it would have to be an older deck or a Cymbiosis build due to budget limits anyway. Yes I owned an LP12 / Ittok / Lingo1 / Koetsu years ago and certainly remember how good it was, but not sure if I want to go to that level again, plus I wonder how much the competition has caught up… Is something like an RP8 or an RP10 a match for an intro LP12 fitted with the same AT MM cartridge?

A used / ex demo RP8 with an Audio Technica looks like it could be interesting - I do love Rega’s plug and play simplicity, so that approach appeals. Plus I have a soft spot for Rega - first real turntable! 

What about Project / Avid / Michell etc? Any fans or users. Certainly love the industrial design of the Avid decks, but have never heard one

Interesting observations about vinyl manufacturing weight. It looks like the 180g tag seems to have become a label of perceived quality then, and not to be sought out as a priority for new discs.

IIRC, wasn’t the vinyl weight issue addressed in the 1970’s by RCA with the their “Dynaflex” range? I came upon this on some of the secondhand orange label Bowie (US & Canadian) albums I picked up in the 80's. Their sound was notably different compared to their UK equivalents, which were in most part, hefty slabs of black. Theses albums were really flexible, almost like a magazine flexi-disc and sat really flat on the turntable. They were generally less prone to warping, tracked really well and were overall much quieter having less background noise. Maybe RCA were on to something back in the time of flares?

If I do plunge, my first thoughts are to probably only buy the odd new limited edition vinyl releases from some of the artists I collected years ago and for the most part buy most new music as a HD download as love the convenience of streaming. But I can also see myself scouring the second hand shops for period LPs though!

EDIT: Vinyl weight - using Bowie as an example, has anyone compared the sound quality of the generations of vinyl output? From the RCA original orange labels, through 1980’\s green labels and on to the recent boxed sets - which looks very tempting for their overall desire factor. But, how do these 180g (remastered?) vinyl issues compare with the old timers?

Richard Dane posted:

The phono stage in your CB NAIT 2 is fine and a good place to start out. Pick a suitable MM for your deck/arm of choice.  A-Ts traditionally work well with Naim.

As for vinyl, 140g may be a sweet spot.  Certainly the Acony 140g pressings are some of the nicest I've heard recently.  However, nothing is quite like the old translucent Japanese virgin vinyl that was used on those lovely Canadian Half-speeds from A&M, or the gorgeous thin Nimbus pressings from the '80s.

I wonder if the Nait 2 phono stage would be competitive with a new up to date dedicated stage? 

I remember an old school friend importing a Japanese copy of Tubular Bells that sounded astonishing to our teenage ears (on my Rega Planar 3)!

Personally I would much prefer a in-build phono stage since it saves cables and therefore chaos.

Richard Dane posted:

The phono stage in your CB NAIT 2 is fine and a good place to start out. Pick a suitable MM for your deck/arm of choice.  A-Ts traditionally work well with Naim.

 

Of course Richard,I didn't know he has this CB Nait 2. Agree,thats a good way to start.

/Peder???? 

YZ, I am going through the exact same process you. 700 LP’s suddenly telling me to play them. I also had LP12/Ekos1/Karma, but also more than 20 years since I snorted any Vinyl. I’m reluctant to spend a fortune. I’m obviously no expert, but in my explorations so far I’d very strongly recommend you listen to the new Rega P6/Ania. I think it’s seriously good by any standards. 

Thats top of my list so far, but I am booked to visit Peter at Cymbiosis on May 23rd to see if he can convince me otherwise. £3-4K my topmost budget with him including ps and phono stage.

Yetizone, interesting you mention RCA Dynaflex and Bowie. Generally I don’t like Dynaflex, and yet one of my favourite issues of Bowie’s Hunky Dory is a US black label DynAflex issue. 

Yeti - Avid’s are lovely decks, along with the Xerxes and Vertere are a far more dynamic listen than the Linn......imo.

kevin J Carden posted:

YZ, I am going through the exact same process you. 700 LP’s suddenly telling me to play them. I also had LP12/Ekos1/Karma, but also more than 20 years since I snorted any Vinyl. I’m reluctant to spend a fortune.

I recently resurrected my LP12/Lingo/Linto/Ekos 1/OC-9 Mk II which had been in storage for a couple of years - must admit I never took to CDs despite having a few hundred, but Qobuz was a game changer for me with digital music.

It's been a couple of weeks with the LP12 again, but I'm generally loving playing vinyl and have started buying some of these new 180g re-releases.  Must confess some sound fantastic, a few have some surface noise/crackles but it's always been so.  What really strikes me is how flimsy many of my albums from the 80s and 90s were.

My young kids are fascinated by the vinyl and are quite excited going to the supermarket where they have some of the re-issues in the aisles - bought an 80's compilation for the hell of it, not really my kind of 80s stuff but must admit it sounded fantastic.  I enjoy the vinyl much more than HD streaming purchases.

Re: OP's title. Black to the future?

Guinnless posted:

Peder posted:

I should go for an Lp12,....IF,...you have a good dealer not so long from were you live.Remember that if you shall have the best out of your LP12, you shall have it in for service every 12 month.

 

A correctly set up LP12 doesn't need a service every year.  Most people have the deck checked over when they have a new cartridge fitted.

This is what I've done since 1989 and not had any issues.

Hi,Im also an 80's-LP12 guy,get my first 1983 in december. This days I do the service myself,I have done this since around 1997. I have all the original tools and equipment for it.

Before that,I also do as you say you do,when a new cartridge was fitted.But back in time you buy a new cartridge every 2 years, if you use your Lp12 as you should......often ????.But now this days,when you also are streaming and maybe also play CD's,....maybe you buy a new cartridge every 4 year....maybe longer than that. That's really,really to long for a service on your LP12...if we talk the best soundquality we can get from our LP12.

You don't have any issues as you wrote,BUT....you have a very big difference in soundquality, if you do service more often.....read, once a year❗ 

You have where I live, winter-weather,...the air is very dry.Summer-weather, the opposite. The LP12-plint is in wood,.....yes,I see that you understand what I mean.Around the world it's always a difference between winter and summer weather. Because of this, you should do a service every year, if you are "Attention To Detail" and looking for the best soundquality from your LP12. You shall also clean your belt more often than 3-4 years if you looking for best soundquality......it's a big different to the better if you do this once a year.

Also all screws and other things has to be check over once a year.I promise that you hear a difference to the better in soundquality if you do this once a year.

???? YETIZONE,an advice to you. In your budget include some money for a turntable-rack/wall-shelf. You shall see that item as a part of the turntable. If you wan't it cheap and you go for an LP12, buy an IKEA Lack-table and modified it as we do from 1980 and forward. It's still a very good table for the LP12,....BUT,this is importent...you shall NOT use Trampolin with IKEA Lack. Use Solid Baseboard and original rubber feets in the corner of the LP12-plint.

/Peder???? 

Yetizone posted:

 Is something like an RP8 or an RP10 a match for an intro LP12 fitted with the same AT MM cartridge?

 

 

I own both Rega RP10 and a mid-to-high level LP12. And personally I think RP10 is a better sounding turntable.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Yetizone posted:

 Is something like an RP8 or an RP10 a match for an intro LP12 fitted with the same AT MM cartridge?

 

 

I own both Rega RP10 and a mid-to-high level LP12. And personally I think RP10 is a better sounding turntable.

Hi Adam Zielinski ????,....some questions.

1◾ Have you a Solid Baseboard alu or Trampolin2 alu under your Lp12..?

2◾ Where have you placed your LP12,...a special rack,wall-shelf or an ordinary table..?

3◾ If you have your LP12 on a special rack (Fraim,Mana Quadraspire ect),have you many items under the LP12 (pre,power,streamer,dac ect)..?

4◾ How long was it since you have a service on your LP2..?

5◾ Is your LP12 an Linn original, without any third parts equipments..?

6◾ What power-supply has you..…(Lingo1 or what)..? ..and if it's old,have you had a service on it...(the power-supply)..?

I shall tell you later why I ask this questions.

/Peder???? 

Akurate plus specs with Radikal and upgraded RCA > DIN interconnect.

Last service - 1 year ago.