Vinyl - back to the future?

Thank's,if I read it right you have answer the questions 4,5 and 6.

If you have time answer 1,2 and 3 to. As an example, question 1 and 6 are importent to each other.....I shall later explain why.

/Peder???? 

Well... if it is so important please explain beforehand. 

Adam,I try to help you,depends on your answers I must do a lot of writings. Maybe you know about what I shall tell you,maybe not. But it's importent information for better soundquality.

I take of my time to write down 6 questions,this I do to inform you, what we have fund out around this questions. If you not will do this,no problem....we just drop it,but it's you who lose than.not me.

/Peder???? 

Peder - just to remind you: this is a thred about returning to vinyl. Not about pseudo-optimising my two turntables.

From your recent posts in other threads you come accross as a person, who needs to lecture everone who does not confirm to your view of a world. 

So - backto the main topic, please.

Take a look at Graham Slee phono stages. You can't get anything better for the money I think. I've got a Revelation with the optional PSU1 power supply. It's got three 3-way switches providing equalisation curves covering virtually all records ever released, including today's modern RIAA pressings. It's a match made in heaven with my high output Sumiko Blackbird MC cartridge. TT is a Acoustic Signature Storm with a SME IV tonearm. 

My experience with 180-g vinyl is that it's largely marketing hype. In fact, the thicker vinyl compromises VTA set for the traditional ~140-g LP. Even if all analog from the original tapes, 180-g re-issues are often mastered to a modern sonic with boosted bass and compression. For vintage LPs I'd seek OPs and would readily pay equal to the re-issue price for a VG+ or better OP. Some of the best sounding LPs I have are flimsy OPs. Creedence Clearwater Revival on the deep-groove blue Fantasy label come immediately to mind; about as flexi as an LP gets.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Peder - just to remind you: this is a thred about returning to vinyl. Not about pseudo-optimising my two turntables.

From your recent posts in other threads you come accross as a person, who needs to lecture everone who does not confirm to your view of a world. 

So - backto the main topic, please.

1+1 is 2 not 3 Adam,if you think that optimising the turntables, and things around it, is a pseudo-thing I'm really chocked. We have tested everything around turntables and know that it isn't a pseudo-thing,other here I think also know that....end of story.

I ask you this questions because we.....our group has an opposite result than you, when we have compared the Rega RP10 against an LP12. Rega RP10 is a very good turntable,but as I say....we had an opposite result than you.

 As you say,this is a turntable advice thread and because of that, when you have the opposite result then us,I start to wunder why.....because of that I ask you this questions. It's importent to know why, because we give YETIZONE advice,and he shall perhaps trust at our advice.For me it's importent to give right advice,everything I/we give advice on we have tested....many times,in different set-ups/systems.

Because of your answers to my questions nr 4,5 and 6, I think I maybe.....I say maybe can have the answer to why we have different result, Rega RP10 vs LP12. And if it is so,....that can help YETIZON to take a decision to what he maybe shall buy. So you see,all is in the rules for the thread subject ????.

So,if you will be kind to answer if you have Trampolin2 or Solid Baseboard alu on your LP12.....that would help alot. After you have answer, I shall explain what I think about.....depending on your answer, you can have something very wrong with your LP12 turntable.

AND,....I don't say this because I want to lecture everyone ????.

Peder???? 

I’ve not compared anything as I’ve been more than happy with LP12s over the years. The Radikal motor to my ears offers rock solid dynamics but I see there also been a recent upgrade to the Lingo which is said to improve AC motor performance. Shock horror - I tend to service my LP12s as I have the tools including a Kradle. I won’t touch the Kandid though, working on the basis that if anyone snaps the cantilever my dealer should. I must be getting it right since my dealer has complimented me on the quality of my set up. Not all of us live near Cymbiosis and I’ve always wondered about setting up at the dealer only to put the thing in the back of a car and set up again at home. That’s me I suppose but having serviced 2 LPs over the years I’m happy. The Khan top plate and Radikal are also a lot easier to set up than the AC motor and stainless steel top plate.

I started with REGA 3 from a friend and then uprgraded to LP12 in time,  just had the old girl uprgraded and now better than ever

as others have said either REGA, Project AVIA or LP12 from a specialist dealer, there are a number, I have always used Peter [@mention:1566878603906177]

would not by LP12 off the shelf! when you get deck then Cartridge - Dynavector DV10 is a good starting point,  get a budget in mind, when I first got my LP12 it was £600

on records, I think you will be happliy suprized how the older vinyl sounds, might need to get some cleaned but this can be done, was listening to a vinyl I have had for 30 years and it still stands up vs my NDX

there are plenty of special vinyl sellers on the interweb and retail

enjoy the search

Peder

LP12 Akurate Plus specification included: Trampolin, Kore, Akito arm and a mid-range MC cartridge (Krystal's predecessor). It was factory configured for me with Radikal. It is powered by a PowerLine (off a separate circuits) like all the components that I use. The turntable was set up and is maintained by my dealer. It's connected by a Superlumina RCA > DIN.

My RP10 is outfited with an Aphelion cartridge and set up by my dealer (as I don't have patience to do those things) run via an SuperLine, powered by a SuperCap.

As to the rest of the components - all are in my profile.

I think I'm ok for supports, component separation, cable dressing and designated, separate power-supply circuits.

Adam

Adam,super ????????.I shall later today put in a longer post here, that I think can help many here.

Depending on your answer now, you must check up your LP12...I shall explain better i a couple of hours.I have some meetings now with some friends.

/Peder???? 

Peder - I think you need to carefully re-read my original post on this thread.

joerand posted:

My experience with 180-g vinyl is that it's largely marketing hype. In fact, the thicker vinyl compromises VTA set for the traditional ~140-g LP. Even if all analog from the original tapes, 180-g re-issues are often mastered to a modern sonic with boosted bass and compression. For vintage LPs I'd seek OPs and would readily pay equal to the re-issue price for a VG+ or better OP. Some of the best sounding LPs I have are flimsy OPs. Creedence Clearwater Revival on the deep-groove blue Fantasy label come immediately to mind; about as flexi as an LP gets.

Thank you Joe, you beat me to it! VTA is certInly affected, although I wonder if the positive results that people report with 180g are the result of VTA being slightly improved with inaccuately set up tone arms or poorly matched Cartridges, particularly if the tone arm does not have the capacity for easy VTA adjustment. Presumably the same is true for those who prefer a thicker platter mat? I spent a considerable amount of time adjusting VTA on the ARO as a result of Russ Andrew's speculations about lowering the tone arm thus increasing the rake of the leading edge of the stylus. Some very interesting results, but with mixed success. I came back to the truly horizontal, as Naim suggests, as being the best compromise.

Peder, by all means start a new thread on LP12 optimisation if you so wish, however, I think we should stick to the topic of Yetizone's thread here. 

Again, thanks for all of the help everyone - much appreciated. A few more ideas starting to develop, so very grateful for the input. 

Kevin - so you are potentially on the same path of vinyl rediscovery as well! Please share your Cymbiois dem experience once you have sampled the decks in question as I’d be really interested to read how you get on. This is more or less the same approach I’m thinking of taking with an LP12 vs competitors, unless I first buy a cheap and cheerful Planar 2 or 3 just to make sure my vinyl is still playable? The Planar then perhaps moth balled for TheBoyYeti to tinker with if so inclined. I’ve been in touch with Peter (very helpful) and hope to arrange something when the school holidays kick in next. I must say the idea of a bespoke deck is quite interesting, especially with the number of plinth design / finishes shown on one of the Cymbiosis website snaps.

Richard - I wasn’t aware there were black label Dynaflex Bowie albums? Interesting, I'll look them up on Discogs. I only have the UK & US orange labels, plus the green label issues from the 80’s which were my ‘in’ to “Dave”. I’ll monitor the used market to see if any come up. 

Alleycat - very interesting. Truly fortunate that you moth balled your LP12, especially with the current eye watering LP12 prices. I now wish I’d held on to mine! 

Peder - thanks for the detailed LP12 set up info, much appreciated. I look forward to your write up as to how you maximise your deck performance. Was this dealer input or your own procedure I wonder? I already have a wall shelf in place that will be stripped of its current items and solely dedicated to the TT and phono, plus each component individually isolated.

Adam - A Rega RP10 and LP12 owner - superb! That’s just the insight I was hoping for. Many thanks. It was a long time ago, but do I remember just how well the old LP12 sounded compared to the R3 it replaced, but I’m very curious as to how the competition has caught up. With some of the new manufacturers I’m wondering if it could be a case of different as opposed to better?

Drikus - I was aware (sort of) of Graham Slee, but have no experience of the individual products and how they compare, so thanks for the tip on the phono stages. The only phono stages I had on my radar were the Linn Linto, Rega’s own and the Stageline.

AnthonyD - Did you buy a Cymbiosis custom LP12 to begin with or something like the current spec Majik?

Ravaneswood10 - the only thing that concerns me is the set up of the LP12 - where did you learn how to set up your LP12? When I had my Sondek I lived in London, so a breeze to get problems addressed. I have two respected Linn dealers about an hour away and one Linn chain dealer nearby who's branch does not stock the LP12, so would have to send away for servicing. Although Peter at Cymbiosis strongly recommended avoiding maintenance where couriers are involved.

Lots to think about!

I sold my vinyl recently to a guy who lives near me who does the hifi shows, buying and selling. He cleaned one of mine in front of me, amazing.....so don,t be too quick to write off your collection without trying to clean a couple. Your dealer might be able to help before either buying a cleaner or giving up on vinyl.

If the OP follows the journey as far as considering a four-figure turntable purchase, I’ve found that vintage idlers can offer a real alternative to modern decks. I’ve been using a Garrard 301/Rega RB202/Denon DL110 for the last year in preference to my Michell Orbe/SME Series V/Lyra Delos. If one of them had to go, it’s unlikely to be the Garrard.

Moderated Post: MB, I've made a tiny little edit just to ensure your post remains on the right side of forum rules..

Apologies for cutting and pasting from a different thread, but relevant here perhaps...

I’ve listened this week to a P6 with Ania cartridge and Aria Phone stage vs RP10 with both Ania/Aria and Dynavector XX2/Dynavector P4 Phono. I have to say that to my tastes, the P6 is hard to beat. It clearly leaves some information in the grooves that the RP10 captures, but what information the P6 does extract is presented in such a delicious manner that it makes every record a real pleasure. Just a lovely sound. I’m torn with the RP10 though. It’s clearly more detailed and getting more from the record, but it’s not a very ‘analog’ sound to my ears. It sounds to me like it’s voiced to challenge digital sources, which is not really what I’m after.

I guess an RP8 audition would seem sensible, but in the meantime I’m all ears for thoughts on whether folks with experience think RP8 is nearer to a P6 presentation or the RP10’s.

Kevin

Richard Dane posted:

Peder, by all means start a new thread on LP12 optimisation if you so wish, however, I think we should stick to the topic of Yetizone's thread here. 

Richard,...that's was also my meaning ????????. Because it's much information,and I think many have questions about what I shall post.

It's a little of a scandal, if I shall use the right word...or a BIG.❗ 

Well,I'm coming back later,busy now.

/Peder???? 

[@mention:1566878603964446]

For whatever it’s worht - I moved from an RP6 / Exact II straight to RP10 with a pre-installed Apheta. Phono-stage at that time was Aria. I found RP10 to be a bit too mechanical, which surprised me a lot. Fortunately, following a left-channel failure, Apheta was exchanged for an Aphelion. An altogether different beast. Now the music was flowing the way only a good turntable can muster.

So I’m not altogether surprised by your audition results. 

An idle speculation: perhaps RP10 is more sensitive to a cartridge than most?

My thoughts on Vinyl Back to the Future?

After much deliberation 12 months ago I purchased a Project Debut Carbon & Phono Amp to connect with my Unitilite.

At the time I owned a few LP's from the 80's. The TT was recommended by my local dealer both his thoughts and mine were that I would need as much cash as possible to buy vinyl.

I now have close to a hundred LP's a mixture of old and new, I have swapped to a 272 with 200 and recently added a Core.

I love the convenience of streaming whether it be ripped or Tidal.

However, on my simple system with a vinyl set up that cost me very little the vinyl is the better sounding and not just to my ears a number of my mates all agree.

To hell with the snap, crackle and pop thats all part of it. It never bothered me 35 years ago when I didn't know any different so I'm not going to let it bother me now.

I'm currently listening to Simon & Garfunkel's Concert in Central Park that I bought yesterday for a few quid at a local charity shop, if I close my eyes I feel like I'm in the middle of the crowd. Brilliant!!

Looks ilke You need to employ someone or learn a new trade for playing Couple of Records with a LP12 and finance endless upgrades

brinkmann, Dr fieckert, kronos, transrotor, clear audio an many more Alternatives with good sound Quality and less hassle 

Yetizone posted:

Again, thanks for all of the help everyone - much appreciated. A few more ideas starting to develop, so very grateful for the input. 

Kevin - so you are potentially on the same path of vinyl rediscovery as well! Please share your Cymbiois dem experience once you have sampled the decks in question as I’d be really interested to read how you get on. This is more or less the same approach I’m thinking of taking with an LP12 vs competitors, unless I first buy a cheap and cheerful Planar 2 or 3 just to make sure my vinyl is still playable? The Planar then perhaps moth balled for TheBoyYeti to tinker with if so inclined. I’ve been in touch with Peter (very helpful) and hope to arrange something when the school holidays kick in next. I must say the idea of a bespoke deck is quite interesting, especially with the number of plinth design / finishes shown on one of the Cymbiosis website snaps.

Richard - I wasn’t aware there were black label Dynaflex Bowie albums? Interesting, I'll look them up on Discogs. I only have the UK & US orange labels, plus the green label issues from the 80’s which were my ‘in’ to “Dave”. I’ll monitor the used market to see if any come up. 

Alleycat - very interesting. Truly fortunate that you moth balled your LP12, especially with the current eye watering LP12 prices. I now wish I’d held on to mine! 

Peder - thanks for the detailed LP12 set up info, much appreciated. I look forward to your write up as to how you maximise your deck performance. Was this dealer input or your own procedure I wonder? I already have a wall shelf in place that will be stripped of its current items and solely dedicated to the TT and phono, plus each component individually isolated.

Adam - A Rega RP10 and LP12 owner - superb! That’s just the insight I was hoping for. Many thanks. It was a long time ago, but do I remember just how well the old LP12 sounded compared to the R3 it replaced, but I’m very curious as to how the competition has caught up. With some of the new manufacturers I’m wondering if it could be a case of different as opposed to better?

Drikus - I was aware (sort of) of Graham Slee, but have no experience of the individual products and how they compare, so thanks for the tip on the phono stages. The only phono stages I had on my radar were the Linn Linto, Rega’s own and the Stageline.

AnthonyD - Did you buy a Cymbiosis custom LP12 to begin with or something like the current spec Majik?

Ravaneswood10 - the only thing that concerns me is the set up of the LP12 - where did you learn how to set up your LP12? When I had my Sondek I lived in London, so a breeze to get problems addressed. I have two respected Linn dealers about an hour away and one Linn chain dealer nearby who's branch does not stock the LP12, so would have to send away for servicing. Although Peter at Cymbiosis strongly recommended avoiding maintenance where couriers are involved.

Lots to think about!

My dealer was my tutor - been buying equipment from him for years. Some will disagree but when you have time, tools and the knowledge it’s not that hard although I do accept that it’s not for everyone. And if you are worried by all the fettling and micro adjustments the perhaps deck like the Rega is for you. If I was staring over again, I might also look at the German decks including Clearaudio with that rather nice parallel tracking arm.

I’ve also seen and heard of some less than wonderful LP 12 servicing attempts by dealers in the past so they’re not all in the league of Cymbiosis.

Alternatively, go for a second hand Technics SL-1200 MKII with an Ortofon Concorde cartridge. Available for around £400-500. Used in many high-end recording studios in that configuration so it must be doing something right.

Or if your pockets are deep the very newest super Technics with a nice SME arm and suitably esoteric cartridge. Either which way nice to see vinyl flourishing