Vinyl - back to the future?

Yetizone posted:

Peder - thanks for the detailed LP12 set up info, much appreciated. I look forward to your write up as to how you maximise your deck performance. Was this dealer input or your own procedure I wonder? I already have a wall shelf in place that will be stripped of its current items and solely dedicated to the TT and phono, plus each component individually isolated.

 

 

 

Yetizone,...your wellcome ????.

No,not dealer input,it's my own procedure that we have tested many times, in our group the last 20 years. But,as you know....we are not strong alone,so we change knowledge alot in our group...and with this guy..????????????????.

Here in Sweden, the best LP12 technition-guy......he's on the same level as Peter Swain, Cymbiosis......agree with this. This guy made he's own Keel one year before Linn release the real one......he's very,very good and I have learnt much from him.I know him personelly from 1989. He owns the biggest/best Linn store in Sweden....and even at this days,looking for details (as also me) to optimise things in and around the LP12.

He's well known at Linn HQ.

The LP12 is like an instrument,in both good and bad ways.If you do things in wrong ways when compare.....than you have wrong results.

Nice too hear that you already have a wallshelf.Is it a Wulkan or something else?

/Peder???? 

Any TT is suspect able to set-up. Even a plug n play like a Rega is compromised by bad alignment.  The one thing I would say to the OP is that if you genuinely want a Linn - fine - but I reiterate there are many vinyl lovers who once they hear the alternatives take a different course.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Peder posted:

Yetizone posted:

 

Here in Sweden, the best LP12 technition-guy......he's on the same level as Peter Swain, Cymbiosis......agree with this. This guy made he's own Keel one year before Linn release the real one......he's very,very good and I have learnt much from him.I know him personelly from 1989. He owns the biggest/best Linn store in Sweden....and even at this days,looking for details (as also me) to optimise things in and around the LP12.

He's well known at Linn HQ.

That must be Linnaeus!

Ardbeg10y,....Linnaeus. Now I don't understand,did I remember right....that you have lived in Stockholm.?

If so,you must know the Linn store there,it's that store in Stockholm I talk about.....back to you ????.

Peder posted:

Ardbeg10y,....Linnaeus. Now I don't understand,did I remember right....that you have lived in Stockholm.?

If so,you must know the Linn store there,it's that store in Stockholm I talk about.....back to you ????.

It is a complicated joke having multiple dimensions indeed. Google the guy / he was very important and his work is still of great value to mankind. What you cannot know is that he studied very nearby where I live.

Never visited a hifistore in Stockholm, only many, many pubs and restaurants.

Ardbeg10y posted

It is a complicated joke having multiple dimensions indeed. Google the guy / he was very important and his work is still of great value to mankind. What you cannot know is that he studied very nearby where I live.

Ok,now I understand a little more,thanks.

Never visited a hifistore in Stockholm, only many, many pubs and restaurants.

That can be better in many ways ????????????,nice to hear.

To go back to the subject......

Yetizone,.....a very good cartridge,that we think is better than Linn's Adikt MM is....AT95 SA. It cost in Sweden around £190,under half the price of an Linn Adikt. 

/Peder???? 

Peder posted:

Adam,super ????????.I shall later today put in a longer post here, that I think can help many here.

Depending on your answer now, you must check up your LP12...I shall explain better i a couple of hours.I have some meetings now with some friends.

/Peder???? 

the great audio specialist is back.  After cisco 2960 optimization, now the lp12.  We have so much to learn from you....

French Rooster posted:

Peder posted:

Adam,super ????????.I shall later today put in a longer post here, that I think can help many here.

Depending on your answer now, you must check up your LP12...I shall explain better i a couple of hours.I have some meetings now with some friends.

/Peder???? 

the great audio specialist is back.  After cisco 2960 optimization, now the lp12.  We have so much to learn from you....

Rooster, I consider your cynicism against someone not being able to apply sufficient nuance to a post pretty uncivilized.

FR, I think we can all allow Peder to disseminate what he knows and learned. That is, after all, what informs my own posts, I.e. what I have learned over the years with regard to Naim and hifi in general. And I’m sure it’s the same for you too. 

Any possible perceived arrogance here is likely down to English being a second language combined with the internet’s usual inability to provide subtle nuance to what is typed on screen.

Bottom line, I think you can give Peder the benefit of the doubt for the moment...

French Rooster posted:

Peder posted:

Adam,super ????????.I shall later today put in a longer post here, that I think can help many here.

Depending on your answer now, you must check up your LP12...I shall explain better i a couple of hours.I have some meetings now with some friends.

/Peder???? 

the great audio specialist is back.  After cisco 2960 optimization, now the lp12.  We have so much to learn from you....

Besides putting up all these meaningless symbols into every post he makes you mean? 

Drikus posted:

French Rooster posted:

Peder posted:

Adam,super ????????.I shall later today put in a longer post here, that I think can help many here.

Depending on your answer now, you must check up your LP12...I shall explain better i a couple of hours.I have some meetings now with some friends.

/Peder???? 

the great audio specialist is back.  After cisco 2960 optimization, now the lp12.  We have so much to learn from you....

Besides putting up all these meaningless symbols into every post he makes you mean? 

we will say that...

Ardbeg10y posted:

French Rooster posted:

Peder posted:

Adam,super ????????.I shall later today put in a longer post here, that I think can help many here.

Depending on your answer now, you must check up your LP12...I shall explain better i a couple of hours.I have some meetings now with some friends.

/Peder???? 

the great audio specialist is back.  After cisco 2960 optimization, now the lp12.  We have so much to learn from you....

Rooster, I consider your cynicism against someone not being able to apply sufficient nuance to a post pretty uncivilized.

yes, i know, i am not a gentleman.

Decorum in the forum please.

Hear, hear...

each time there is thread on turntables,  there is the same controversy on lp12 vs the competition.   It is a bit tiring.   The lp12 are very musical decks, with prat and involvement, natural sound....no problem with that.  But there are alternatives and other decks on the market, some are better, some not.    Why some are always thinking that the lp12 is the only turntable to buy?  it is ridiculous.

French Rooster posted:

each time there is thread on turntables,  there is the same controversy on lp12 vs the competition.   It is a bit tiring.   The lp12 are very musical decks, with prat and involvement, natural sound....no problem with that.  But there are alternatives and other decks on the market, some are better, some not.    Why some are always thinking that the lp12 is the only turntable to buy?  it is ridiculous.

It's a Naim forum. Linn and Naim have always been good a good combination so the LP12 is a natural starting point.

As you say, there's lots of competition out there so as usual, if you're looking to spend some serious cash, then you need to do some listening and make up your own mind.

besides the synergy between Naim and Linn and sound quality, the looks of Turntables having a decent wooden plinth is fantastic. For me, an old Linn, Garrard, Thorens etc would be much prefered above most new decks just because of their looks.

Imagine a Linn or Thorens here instead of the Project Debut - it will be an eye catching object:

Welcome back to the vinyl fold. It still gets used a lot in my house. My ClearAudio Concept MC and Nano phono stage sound great to me on my Atom. 

for prat and synergy with naim, other than lp12:   dps, vertere, spiral groove, rega...

For beautiful look, my choices of course :  avid acutus, bergman, basis , kronos, sme, audio note tt3, continuum caliburn.

on the full lp12 price, for look and sound :  avid acutus, spiral groove sg1.

My story. A former Vinyl fan I owned a tricked out LP 12 on Mana Phase 5 (rubbish) , with ARO, Armageddon,  Troika etc, etc.  The thing sounded good but was a nightmare to set up properly. Swapped it all for a Well Tempered Reference with Dynavector Te Kaitora and BAT VK-10 phonestage....sounded better and far easier to set up. Then I moved countries and found I lacked the space for all the vinyl plus CDs so got rid of the TT, Phonestage and put my records into storage.  15 years later I've moved to a full digital system with local and internet streaming, and although I didn't need it, an excellent phonostage. The downsizing opened up the top shelf of my rack. I spent a long time waiting for my new system to arrive, which is always dangerous...and got to thinking about an analog set-up. Did my homework and eventually settled on a Michell Orbe SE, SME Series IV and an Ortofon Cadenza Black with Cardas phono leads.

The combination of Michell Orbe and SME is a pleasure to set up. Everything is a precisely calibrated adjustment, unlike the Linn, so suits my uber-Anal approach to hi-fi.  Having set up everything exactly and precisely, I pulled all my old Decca and EMI classical records and bought a load of my old favourite rock albums, now remastered and pressed on 180gram vinyl.

My new system arrived so I excitedly took a listen. Fantastic! Great imaging, focus, tonal integrity. As good as I ever remember vinyl. The TT, arm and cartridge synergized really well and I was delighted, although a bit let down by a few of the 180g remasters which were OK but nothing like as special as some of those old Decca and EMI recordings.

Then my new digital server arrived. Put it on its rack shelf, plugged in the PC and interconnect and we're ready to go. Left it about 30 hours before taking a listen.  Holy cow but this thing is good. Better than analog in every respect...more resolving, bigger more focused sound stage, greater musical impetus and drive, far better micro and macro dynamics, greater listener involvement, more natural sounding and above all, a lot quieter, with far blacker backgrounds, so far more revealing of low level detail. To say it killed my appetite for vinyl would be an understatement.  So last week I pulled the whole analog rig, repacked it and took it to the dealer's.

Moral of the story....save the money you'd spend on an analog system and invest it in a SOTA digital source. You won't believe how much information is on a red book CD that CDPs have simply never revealed.  The lastest digital HW and files make analog sound old; noisy stylus to vinyl interface, contamination noise, lack of dynamics and low level detail lost in the less than silent background. The ritual of taking a record out of its sleeve, clamping it to the platter, lowering the delicate stylus into the lead in groove is very memory evoking and quaintly satisfying but palls pretty quickly in the face of superior sound quality, random access to any album you care to name, dark, pristine backgrounds, huge soundstage, total listener involvement and not a single pop or crackle to ruin the illusion.  If complete immersion in music is your goal, analog replay very clearly belongs in the past and digital finally has come of age.  And this from a former 'dyed in the wool vinyl fanatic'

TK421 posted:

My thoughts on Vinyl Back to the Future?

After much deliberation 12 months ago I purchased a Project Debut Carbon & Phono Amp to connect with my Unitilite.

At the time I owned a few LP's from the 80's. The TT was recommended by my local dealer both his thoughts and mine were that I would need as much cash as possible to buy vinyl.

I now have close to a hundred LP's a mixture of old and new, I have swapped to a 272 with 200 and recently added a Core.

I love the convenience of streaming whether it be ripped or Tidal.

However, on my simple system with a vinyl set up that cost me very little the vinyl is the better sounding and not just to my ears a number of my mates all agree.

To hell with the snap, crackle and pop thats all part of it. It never bothered me 35 years ago when I didn't know any different so I'm not going to let it bother me now.

I'm currently listening to Simon & Garfunkel's Concert in Central Park that I bought yesterday for a few quid at a local charity shop, if I close my eyes I feel like I'm in the middle of the crowd. Brilliant!!

 

I have a similar story, at least as far as 'after much deliberation' is concerned. I had about 400 LPs gathering dust, most of which from my youth (60s/70s), so not exactly mint.

I bought a Pro-Ject RPM Carbon 3, I already had a Grado prestige Blue, I added a 2nd hand, mint Stageline N and a PS for it and now I am enjoying my old vinyl like never before.  And, as you say, to hell with snap, crackle and pop, that is part of it.

Best

M. 

Ardbeg10y posted:

besides the synergy between Naim and Linn and sound quality, the looks of Turntables having a decent wooden plinth is fantastic. For me, an old Linn, Garrard, Thorens etc would be much prefered above most new decks just because of their looks.

Imagine a Linn or Thorens here instead of the Project Debut - it will be an eye catching object:

Or even better, an LP12 with a Chris Harban Woodsong plinth!

Blackmorec… Thanks so much for sharing your equipment buying history - a very detailed and thoughtful account based on experience - appreciated. Would you be so kind as to please expand on the rest of the system, particularly the streaming source as system context is helpful.

Max_B and TK421…. Great to read that you are now enjoying vinyl again. Could your experience be a telling signpost I wonder. I’ll take a look at Project’s Debut, but I think my heart belongs to Linn & Rega!

I have to admit that the thought of the new NDX2 is tantalising, especially as it seems the value of my vinyl collection could help finance that direction. But… After taking in the observations from everyone (thanks all), I think I’m just going to have to scratch the itch. Just to prove to myself (either way) whether a vinyl source can be a viable playback medium in this day and age. Initially, I’m probably leaning towards a modest Rega deck and then use it alongside my UQ2 / MacMini streaming source back to back to see how I get on. Perhaps then jump on the LP12 / RP10/ SME / AVID upgrade hamster wheel if vinyl is dominating play.

Only then I will know how much I’m enjoying the vinyl playback ritual - lowering the stylus and flipping over the disc at the end of each side. Time will tell if this becomes a tiresome chore interrupting music flow, or an anticipatory pleasure for the music to continue. Not to mention how the odd crackly disc actually sounds, and if it becomes annoying.

One issue that could scupper the process long term is the quality of new vinyl. If I buy new LPs and end up having to return warped or noisy discs, then this would be testing - as in the early 1990’s where this scenario eventually fuelled my switch to shiny discs, despite their nails down a blackboard SQ shortcomings at the time. 

Anyway, in the long term I hope both streaming and vinyl sources can successfully coexist for me, but only time will tell. 

After enjoying pawing over my old LPs this last couple of weeks and despite the pleasure of using an iPad and App to browse music, I know for sure that a digital file simply can’t generate the same tactile sensory pleasure of holding an album cover in ones hands and savouring the typography / photography / illustration in situ. I’d simply forgotten how much I’d missed this simple pleasure.

Blackmorec posted:

My story. A former Vinyl fan I owned a tricked out LP 12 on Mana Phase 5 (rubbish) , with ARO, Armageddon,  Troika etc, etc.  The thing sounded good but was a nightmare to set up properly. Swapped it all for a Well Tempered Reference with Dynavector Te Kaitora and BAT VK-10 phonestage....sounded better and far easier to set up. Then I moved countries and found I lacked the space for all the vinyl plus CDs so got rid of the TT, Phonestage and put my records into storage.  15 years later I've moved to a full digital system with local and internet streaming, and although I didn't need it, an excellent phonostage. The downsizing opened up the top shelf of my rack. I spent a long time waiting for my new system to arrive, which is always dangerous...and got to thinking about an analog set-up. Did my homework and eventually settled on a Michell Orbe SE, SME Series IV and an Ortofon Cadenza Black with Cardas phono leads.

The combination of Michell Orbe and SME is a pleasure to set up. Everything is a precisely calibrated adjustment, unlike the Linn, so suits my uber-Anal approach to hi-fi.  Having set up everything exactly and precisely, I pulled all my old Decca and EMI classical records and bought a load of my old favourite rock albums, now remastered and pressed on 180gram vinyl.

My new system arrived so I excitedly took a listen. Fantastic! Great imaging, focus, tonal integrity. As good as I ever remember vinyl. The TT, arm and cartridge synergized really well and I was delighted, although a bit let down by a few of the 180g remasters which were OK but nothing like as special as some of those old Decca and EMI recordings.

Then my new digital server arrived. Put it on its rack shelf, plugged in the PC and interconnect and we're ready to go. Left it about 30 hours before taking a listen.  Holy cow but this thing is good. Better than analog in every respect...more resolving, bigger more focused sound stage, greater musical impetus and drive, far better micro and macro dynamics, greater listener involvement, more natural sounding and above all, a lot quieter, with far blacker backgrounds, so far more revealing of low level detail. To say it killed my appetite for vinyl would be an understatement.  So last week I pulled the whole analog rig, repacked it and took it to the dealer's.

Moral of the story....save the money you'd spend on an analog system and invest it in a SOTA digital source. You won't believe how much information is on a red book CD that CDPs have simply never revealed.  The lastest digital HW and files make analog sound old; noisy stylus to vinyl interface, contamination noise, lack of dynamics and low level detail lost in the less than silent background. The ritual of taking a record out of its sleeve, clamping it to the platter, lowering the delicate stylus into the lead in groove is very memory evoking and quaintly satisfying but palls pretty quickly in the face of superior sound quality, random access to any album you care to name, dark, pristine backgrounds, huge soundstage, total listener involvement and not a single pop or crackle to ruin the illusion.  If complete immersion in music is your goal, analog replay very clearly belongs in the past and digital finally has come of age.  And this from a former 'dyed in the wool vinyl fanatic'

 

 

what is sota digital source?      well tempered reference :  i remember, wonderful deck!

Like you, i am mostly listening with my digital combo ( nds/555dr/ unitserve -uptone js2). But still find there is something superior with the sound of lps through a good deck.  I had sme20/sme5 and now a rega rp10 with delos cart.  

I am listening to digital for all the new albums and also the convenience to choose with an ipad....but when i put an lp, it sounds more real to me.    My digital combo is fully optimized with high quality lans, linear ps ....but the rega rp10/delos, at third the cost, is still ahead for me.