Vinyl - back to the future?

A little clarification to my earlier post....

Perhaps yesterday I did go a little extreme in stating that the vinyl on my modestly priced TT is better than streaming via the Core, but in my defence I was listening to an old LP at the time.

Another way of explaining is the sound/music output is definitely different but I can't really explain in what way. I guess its down to personal preference.

I agree with others that the vinyl is certainly much more of an effort/ritual and my guess is sometimes you will be bothered and at other times you won't.

It's not my business but I would suggest just 'dipping your toes in the water' to start and see how you feel after several months. 

Now buying vinyl in a real shop I actually find is a great hobby, although I'm not sure SWMBO finds it as exciting as I do!

ATB with your decision making.

Mike

Yetizone posted:

Blackmorec… Thanks so much for sharing your equipment buying history - a very detailed and thoughtful account based on experience - appreciated. Would you be so kind as to please expand on the rest of the system, particularly the streaming source as system context is helpful.

Max_B and TK421…. Great to read that you are now enjoying vinyl again. Could your experience be a telling signpost I wonder. I’ll take a look at Project’s Debut, but I think my heart belongs to Linn & Rega!

 

I have to admit that the thought of the new NDX2 is tantalising, especially as it seems the value of my vinyl collection could help finance that direction. But… After taking in the observations from everyone (thanks all), I think I’m just going to have to scratch the itch. Just to prove to myself (either way) whether a vinyl source can be a viable playback medium in this day and age. Initially, I’m probably leaning towards a modest Rega deck and then use it alongside my UQ2 / MacMini streaming source back to back to see how I get on. Perhaps then jump on the LP12 / RP10/ SME / AVID upgrade hamster wheel if vinyl is dominating play.

Only then I will know how much I’m enjoying the vinyl playback ritual - lowering the stylus and flipping over the disc at the end of each side. Time will tell if this becomes a tiresome chore interrupting music flow, or an anticipatory pleasure for the music to continue. Not to mention how the odd crackly disc actually sounds, and if it becomes annoying.

One issue that could scupper the process long term is the quality of new vinyl. If I buy new LPs and end up having to return warped or noisy discs, then this would be testing - as in the early 1990’s where this scenario eventually fuelled my switch to shiny discs, despite their nails down a blackboard SQ shortcomings at the time. 

Anyway, in the long term I hope both streaming and vinyl sources can successfully coexist for me, but only time will tell. 

After enjoying pawing over my old LPs this last couple of weeks and despite the pleasure of using an iPad and App to browse music, I know for sure that a digital file simply can’t generate the same tactile sensory pleasure of holding an album cover in ones hands and savouring the typography / photography / illustration in situ. I’d simply forgotten how much I’d missed this simple pleasure.

i am buying at discogs, near mint or mint pressings from the analog erra.  Fantastic site!   for 600 lps i have, i returned perhaps 5.... you can choose the year of pressing, the quality, the price...    the best site for vinyl lovers.    ( also full credits for each album, musicians, mastering....).

French Rooster, how very dare you! The only player in town is the LP12!

Sota is state of the art by the way, just like the Sondek 

Stu

sota cosmos is very well built, better than the bouncing lp12.  But the lp12 has better prat, the cosmos was a bit polite when i heard it some years ago.   Anyway i would be also happy with a klimax lp12.....

But for this price i would buy the avid acutus reference, personally....

Peder posted:

I should go for an Lp12,....IF,...you have a good dealer not so long from were you live.Remember that if you shall have the best out of your LP12, you shall have it in for service every 12 month.

Also think about what you get/buy,in this days it is out so many pre-loved LP12's with third parts in it. Will you have that, or an original one?

I should go for an original one,have listen to so many with third parts in it,different....but not better. Often cleaner or/and clearer but less in musicality. And in the long run musicality winns,it's because of musicality you can listen hour after hour and wan't stop.

Many here in Sweden thinks an pre-circus is better than the newer ones if we talk musicality,it's importent that you listen for yourself.Contact a good dealer who can do different demos for you,and if you find a used one.....let your dealer check it before you buy it.....so you know what you are buying....and set it up with the right parts in it.

Lejonklou Hifi has very good MM-phonostage,you can also find this on the pre-loved market.....or you can find an old Linn LK1 pre, and only use the phonostage. It has both MM and MC and are still very,very good. You can also recapp it ( LK1),we have done that ....and I can say that it's much better after the recapp. I think ClassA do this.❗ 

Much to think about,but an LP12 is always an LP12.I see in your profile that you have had one earlier.....so you know what I'm talking about ????.

/Peder???? 

 

'm sorry but you're perpetuating an urban myth - a modern LP12 does NOT have to be set up every 12 months. In normal domestic conditions it should, if it has been set up correctly in the first instance, be fine after 12 months and well beyond.

I have 2 dems booked for tomorrow; P6 vs RP8 and also going to try a Well Tempered Simplex. Last dems before Cymbiosis on 23rd. Then it’ll be decision time..

kevin J Carden posted:

I have 2 dems booked for tomorrow; P6 vs RP8 and also going to try a Well Tempered Simplex. Last dems before Cymbiosis on 23rd. Then it’ll be decision time..

Great stuff Kevin - hope the dems go well and look forward to reading about your experience.

rega is apart of the increase of vinyl.  new to vinyl will not pay linn prices   rega 6 is an excellent/// plug and play  

Blackmorec posted:

My story. A former Vinyl fan I owned a tricked out LP 12 on Mana Phase 5 (rubbish) , with ARO, Armageddon,  Troika etc, etc.  The thing sounded good but was a nightmare to set up properly. Swapped it all for a Well Tempered Reference with Dynavector Te Kaitora and BAT VK-10 phonestage....sounded better and far easier to set up. Then I moved countries and found I lacked the space for all the vinyl plus CDs so got rid of the TT, Phonestage and put my records into storage.  15 years later I've moved to a full digital system with local and internet streaming, and although I didn't need it, an excellent phonostage. The downsizing opened up the top shelf of my rack. I spent a long time waiting for my new system to arrive, which is always dangerous...and got to thinking about an analog set-up. Did my homework and eventually settled on a Michell Orbe SE, SME Series IV and an Ortofon Cadenza Black with Cardas phono leads.

The combination of Michell Orbe and SME is a pleasure to set up. Everything is a precisely calibrated adjustment, unlike the Linn, so suits my uber-Anal approach to hi-fi.  Having set up everything exactly and precisely, I pulled all my old Decca and EMI classical records and bought a load of my old favourite rock albums, now remastered and pressed on 180gram vinyl.

My new system arrived so I excitedly took a listen. Fantastic! Great imaging, focus, tonal integrity. As good as I ever remember vinyl. The TT, arm and cartridge synergized really well and I was delighted, although a bit let down by a few of the 180g remasters which were OK but nothing like as special as some of those old Decca and EMI recordings.

Then my new digital server arrived. Put it on its rack shelf, plugged in the PC and interconnect and we're ready to go. Left it about 30 hours before taking a listen.  Holy cow but this thing is good. Better than analog in every respect...more resolving, bigger more focused sound stage, greater musical impetus and drive, far better micro and macro dynamics, greater listener involvement, more natural sounding and above all, a lot quieter, with far blacker backgrounds, so far more revealing of low level detail. To say it killed my appetite for vinyl would be an understatement.  So last week I pulled the whole analog rig, repacked it and took it to the dealer's.

Moral of the story....save the money you'd spend on an analog system and invest it in a SOTA digital source. You won't believe how much information is on a red book CD that CDPs have simply never revealed.  The lastest digital HW and files make analog sound old; noisy stylus to vinyl interface, contamination noise, lack of dynamics and low level detail lost in the less than silent background. The ritual of taking a record out of its sleeve, clamping it to the platter, lowering the delicate stylus into the lead in groove is very memory evoking and quaintly satisfying but palls pretty quickly in the face of superior sound quality, random access to any album you care to name, dark, pristine backgrounds, huge soundstage, total listener involvement and not a single pop or crackle to ruin the illusion.  If complete immersion in music is your goal, analog replay very clearly belongs in the past and digital finally has come of age.  And this from a former 'dyed in the wool vinyl fanatic'

 

 

Hi, I am interested in trying to set up a new digital server, something I haven't done before. Would you mind sharing what yours actually is, please? Thank you, David

Vintageaxeman & Blackmorec, to avoid hijacking the OP's thread, please start a new thread in the Streaming Audio room. Thanks.

Sorry Richard, Will do.

kevin J Carden posted:

I have 2 dems booked for tomorrow; P6 vs RP8 and also going to try a Well Tempered Simplex. Last dems before Cymbiosis on 23rd. Then it’ll be decision time..

Well Tempered crossed off the list. Its hair-shirt design flimsiness would leave me permanently in fear of writing off the cartridge at a single mis-stroke at any point and it didn’t make up for this big disadvantage by sounding very good either. Move on. 

P6/Ania vs RP8/Apheta was, to my ears, another resounding victory for P6. If the prices of the 2 turntables were reversed I’d still pick the P6. There’s something about it which is just ‘right’, even if it’s not the last word in resolution.

Overall though, I have to say that I’m going through a bit of a wobble on the whole turntable idea. Am I just going off at a tangent in reconsidering Vinyl? Should I just consign it to nostalgia? After all, it’s not exactly a cheap indulgence. Even a P6 will need an Aria phono, 2 new levels of support, cables etc and all in will cost at least £2.5k. That’s most of the way to financing a pair of SuperLumina Din/XLR’s which would notably improve my streaming experience...

Off on holiday for a week this Saturday. Some pondering to do as I lie in the Spanish Sun 

kevin J Carden posted:

Even a P6 will need an Aria phono

Not necessarily. I was gobsmacked at how good the Ania was into a Rega Fono MC.

I think Kevin is being sensible.   His vinyl has been mothballed for quite a while and he’s asking whether the investment is in effect worth it.  

kevin J Carden posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

I have 2 dems booked for tomorrow; P6 vs RP8 and also going to try a Well Tempered Simplex. Last dems before Cymbiosis on 23rd. Then it’ll be decision time..

Well Tempered crossed off the list. Its hair-shirt design flimsiness would leave me permanently in fear of writing off the cartridge at a single mis-stroke at any point and it didn’t make up for this big disadvantage by sounding very good either. Move on. 

P6/Ania vs RP8/Apheta was, to my ears, another resounding victory for P6. If the prices of the 2 turntables were reversed I’d still pick the P6. There’s something about it which is just ‘right’, even if it’s not the last word in resolution.

Overall though, I have to say that I’m going through a bit of a wobble on the whole turntable idea. Am I just going off at a tangent in reconsidering Vinyl? Should I just consign it to nostalgia? After all, it’s not exactly a cheap indulgence. Even a P6 will need an Aria phono, 2 new levels of support, cables etc and all in will cost at least £2.5k. That’s most of the way to financing a pair of SuperLumina Din/XLR’s which would notably improve my streaming experience...

Off on holiday for a week this Saturday. Some pondering to do as I lie in the Spanish Sun 

Kevin - thanks for sharing thoughts on your first dem - and enjoy your holiday!

No experience of Well Tempered turntables but the design approach looks interesting. No dealer near here so can't take a closer look unfortunately.

The Rega P6 looks like it could be the mid point gem in their range from the reviews online - and your praise. I’m hoping to try and get to demo it alongside the Pro-Ject Carbon, P3 and RP8 next week. 

Likewise, I’m also a little shaky at the thought of the turntable outlay, for which, could be just occasional use. Although the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of listening to my old vinyl albums on a period appropriate system, rather than a less than ideal CD transfer. If it amounts to a folly then so be it!

Yetizone posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

Overall though, I have to say that I’m going through a bit of a wobble on the whole turntable idea. Am I just going off at a tangent in reconsidering Vinyl? Should I just consign it to nostalgia? After all, it’s not exactly a cheap indulgence. Even a P6 will need an Aria phono, 2 new levels of support, cables etc and all in will cost at least £2.5k. That’s most of the way to financing a pair of SuperLumina Din/XLR’s which would notably improve my streaming experience...

Likewise, I’m also a little shaky at the thought of the turntable outlay, for which, could be just occasional use. Although the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of listening to my old vinyl albums on a period appropriate system, rather than a less than ideal CD transfer. If it amounts to a folly then so be it!

I have a TT for 2 years now, a lowly Project Debut Carbon having issues (however controlled issues and acceptable). Nevertheless, I do increasingly listen to vinyl. At least every evening an hour. The point of no return was for me that I met a local guy having a lot of seventies LP's in his second hand shop. I bought some and for some reason I'm now listening to music I'm completely unknown to, but I enjoy it. I searched for the same albums on Spotify etc ... I don't enjoy precisely the same music being digitally streamed.

Old vinyl, TT + simple olive setup (72/140) works brilliant for me (even when listening to inferior stuff like Bee Gees (don't tell my classical friends please)).

Personally, I would take the plunch and maybe think about a strategy to spread the 'investment'. Do one step now, a few upgrades later.

Christopher_M posted:

kevin J Carden posted:

Even a P6 will need an Aria phono

Not necessarily. I was gobsmacked at how good the Ania was into a Rega Fono MC.

I would second the positive comment about the Rega Fono MC. I'm currently running an Akurate level LP12 into the Rega Fono MC and while e.g. Linn's own Uphorik is clearly better (as it should at about 8 times the cost of the Rega), the Fono MC is an impressively good piece of kit for the money.

On returning to vinyl or not, I did it in stages (not by design but rather by indecision!), buying and selling a couple of Rega's in the process over a number of years before finally deciding to go all in on vinyl for my home office (lounge stereo is CD based). I ended up with the LP12, which I really love and have always wanted (but I do find it to be extremely expensive). I looked seriously at the P6 Neo package and I think it's huge VFM and really a sweet spot in the Rega range. That's probably where I'd start today if I was pretty convinced about getting back into vinyl; it's good enough from a SQ perspective to be fulfilling for a number of years but still not so expensive as to create a big loss if you decide later on that vinyl is not for you after all. 

So, I’m now down to Rega P6 vs a Cymbiosis LP12. Both PRaT orientated. I’m wondering if there are other approaches to Analogue that I should be trying. well Tempered didn’t work for me, but I’ve heard Nottingham work well before. Any others I should be trying? All ears ... 

kevin J Carden posted:

 Any others I should be trying? All ears ... 

DPS ? 

Thanks James. Never heard of it! Any suggestions where I can audition it ?

kevin J Carden posted:

 Any others I should be trying? All ears ... 

Garrards. Seriously. If you have an opportunity to hear a well-fettled 301 or 401 in a decent plinth before spending big bucks, take it. I wish I had.

kevin J Carden posted:

So, I’m now down to Rega P6 vs a Cymbiosis LP12. Both PRaT orientated. I’m wondering if there are other approaches to Analogue that I should be trying. well Tempered didn’t work for me, but I’ve heard Nottingham work well before. Any others I should be trying? All ears ... 

perhaps vpi prime, acoustic signature wow xl, eat c sharp:  3 serious challengers. 

i forgot audio note tt2 also.     these four turntables are in the 2k-3k range and have very good reviews.  Nothingham analogue, kuzma stabi s are more on the romantic side.   Clearaudio performance is a bit cold and neutral.     For the money, the eat csharp is hard to beat.

The vpi prime is more expensive 

my favorite in this price range:   rega p9 second hand. 

kevin J Carden posted:

.

Overall though, I have to say that I’m going through a bit of a wobble on the whole turntable idea. Am I just going off at a tangent in reconsidering Vinyl? Should I just consign it to nostalgia? After all, it’s not exactly a cheap indulgence. Even a P6 will need an Aria phono, 2 new levels of support, cables etc and all in will cost at least £2.5k. That’s most of the way to financing a pair of SuperLumina Din/XLR’s which would notably improve my streaming experience...

 

I’m with Blackmorec in considering vinyl to be inferior to where digital now is in terms of sound quality. There are so many more limiting compromises with the way sound is recorded on and retrieved from vinyl, before even considering wear and risk of damage. And with music originally recorded in digital, or where an amplification stage in the replay system digitises the signal and later reconverts to analog (as in some recent Linn and Naim products) even the purist argument about music being analog ceases to apply. 

Some people refuse to accept this, or get some other emotional enjoyment from playing vinyl, and maybe you would as well, but deciding to go into it in a serious way rather than just as a current fashion does mean committing serious resources, so you do need to be sure it delivers what you want.