Vinyl - back to the future?

Hi Innocent,

I don’t know about “refuse to accept”. My Akurate...ish LP12 can underwhelm with poor pressings (and I have a particular aversion to off-centre pressings), but it outperforms my NDS/555 on a regular basis. It recently received a Lingo 4, in place of an Armageddon, and I’m doing the old “record collection rediscovery” thing all over again.

A big part of it is the greater dynamic range you tend to get with LPs. They are generally spared the loud digital mastering. For example, Radiohead records are a revelation and the recent vinyl Deadwing (Porcupine Tree) is a thing of wonder. 

Im sure Chord Dave is very good, but until they invent a DAC that restores DR “on the fly” I will keep a foot in both camps.

Keith

French Rooster posted:

my favorite in this price range:   rega p9 second hand. 

Great TT but still around £1700 second hand. Considering it's age, isn't there something new and better for this price?

KRM posted:

Hi Innocent,

I don’t know about “refuse to accept”. My Akurate...ish LP12 can underwhelm with poor pressings (and I have a particular aversion to off-centre pressings), but it outperforms my NDS/555 on a regular basis. It recently received a Lingo 4, in place of an Armageddon, and I’m doing the old “record collection rediscovery” thing all over again.

A big part of it is the greater dynamic range you tend to get with LPs. They are generally spared the loud digital mastering. For example, Radiohead records are a revelation and the recent vinyl Deadwing (Porcupine Tree) is a thing of wonder. 

Im sure Chord Dave is very good, but until they invent a DAC that restores DR “on the fly” I will keep a foot in both camps.

Keith

Of course a lot depends on the recording/ mastering. In terms of dynamic range, CD is capable of a wider range than is vinyl, but if compressed when recorded/mastered then that obviously  destroys it. Interesting that you suggest that even relatively recent, digitally recorded, music may be mastered to have a more compressed dynamic range on CD - that is crazy, and something of which I was unaware. I assumed that the so-called “loudness war”only applied to modern pop and that it would be applied to all media. I wonder if the hi res versions, if available, are uncompressed, given that they are not aimed at the bulk market.

There is a bit of a myth about compression and dynamic range in mastering... theire is almost always a full dynamic range within compressed music, however with compression  it’s the average energy levels that are raised, and sometimes significantly raised, of elements within and of the whole mix so the end result sounds punchier and louder. If all the dynamic range was removed or hugely removed for all the sounds it would sound almost unintelligible and strange...

if think if there is a very noticeable difference in range between your phono and digital source, I would suspect reconstruction filters to be causing most of this apparent discrepancy. Remember the  RIAA contour gain response of phono preamp has to do a fair bit of companding (opposite of compression) at different frequencies to compensate for the dynamic range limitation of LPs... and errors here could overly expand the sound for lower frequencies etc (and of course the other way a disc could sound a little thin)... I suspect many people like this dynamic range ‘distortion’ and perhaps one of the reasons that vinyl attracts.. I often like this effect of this error with vinyl audio reproduction.

KRM posted:

 

A big part of it is the greater dynamic range you tend to get with LPs.

If that is the case then it can only be due to the choices of whoever produced the digital files.  It is impossible for vinyl to have a greater dynamic range than digital is capable of.  Unfortunately it is rather common for digital to have the volume cranked up to the max, and normalised so that all the quiet bits are loud.  That is not, of course, anything to do with the technology.  Vinyl has a limited dynamic range.  Sound engineers choosing not to use the (much) greater dynamic range available to them is not inevitable, but is rather sad.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

There is a bit of a myth about compression and dynamic range in mastering... theire is almost always a full dynamic range within compressed music, however with compression  it’s the average energy levels that are raised, and sometimes significantly raised, of elements within and of the whole mix so the end result sounds punchier and louder. If all the dynamic range was removed or hugely removed for all the sounds it would sound almost unintelligible and strange...

if think if there is a very noticeable difference in range between your phono and digital source, I would suspect reconstruction filters to be causing most of this apparent discrepancy. Remember the  RIAA contour gain response of phono preamp has to do a fair bit of companding (opposite of compression) at different frequencies to compensate for the dynamic range limitation of LPs... and errors here could overly expand the sound for lower frequencies etc (and of course the other way a disc could sound a little thin)... I suspect many people like this dynamic range ‘distortion’ and perhaps one of the reasons that vinyl attracts.. I often like this effect of this error with vinyl audio reproduction.

I think the point made by KRM was that there has been a tendency in recent years to over-compress music when mastered for release (he suggests only for digital/CD) so that the average sound level is higher, rather than no dynamic range - th so-called ‘loudness war’, whereby apparently louder things sell better to the masses, or something (I don’t pretend to know or understand why).

Exactly. Digital files are generally mastered with lower dynamic range than viny, even though digital has greater dynamic potential. 

Check out the DR Database website. Not all digital files are mastered this way - Pink Floyd is fine - but many are. 

Dynamic compression isn’t inherently bad and a high DR doesn’t necessarily mean great sound, but higher DR is a good reason for choosing vinyl.

Keith, interesting, I have certainly heard the opposite from some in the business, due to issues with cross groove modulation, especially when there is a strong bass line  etc.... but I guess there are always exceptions... and perhaps some music that is mastered  to have a very high level average power level aren’t released on vinyl.

The DR database I have a slight issue with as it appears to look solely at the aggregate envelope DR, as opposed to dynamic range of sound within the mix at certain frequencies...  and when one compresses and masters one tend to very much address the latter. I have been relearning how to master using compression recently and it certainly not all about compressing or flattening the aggregate envelope.. that would sound awful and if there was a bass or drum line it would be probably be sapped away and be lifeless.. you wouldn’t sell many tracks..

Hi Simon,

Yes, too much bass and the stylus would jump out of the groove. Digital has better dynamic potential but it frequently isn’t used. I recommend a book called “Perfecting Sound Forever “ by Greg Milner.

Hi Keith, yes I have that book, it’s an interesting history of music production and distribution, albeit a bit US centric.. not much, if I remember correctly, about Joe Meek, a great British pioneer of many of the original  popular music production and compression techniques  ... but learning techniques for compression using modern tools is to me something quite different..

I also recommend, ‘Joe Meek’s Bold Techniques’ by Barry Cleveland.... fascinating... and who says music production is not creative art..... 

Thanks, I’ll check it out

I thought  is that the issue with deliberately compressed dynamic range is a fairly recent phenomenon  - and if I heard correctly there is a backlash against it. I thought primarily this affected mainstream pop, or labels associated therewith, and certainly there are lots of CDs with great dynamic range, with quiet parts of the music very quiet and not disappearing into the noise floor as can happen with vinyl., 

Deliberately compressing the dynamic range purely to make average level higher for some marketing advantage is totally reprehensible, but fits with the modern disregard for sound quality. But it is nothing to do with the medium, just the behaviour of crappy non-musical  marketing *******s. (insert your own choice of descriptive noun.)

You can see DR values DR Database website. Sadly, over-compression hasn’t gone away and isn’t confirmed to pop

The thing about nostalgia is it takes you back. 

My advice is to go forward. 

Olly

Try going diagonally. Forward Is too obvious 

KRM posted:

Hi Innocent,

I don’t know about “refuse to accept”. My Akurate...ish LP12 can underwhelm with poor pressings (and I have a particular aversion to off-centre pressings), but it outperforms my NDS/555 on a regular basis. It recently received a Lingo 4, in place of an Armageddon, and I’m doing the old “record collection rediscovery” thing all over again.

A big part of it is the greater dynamic range you tend to get with LPs. They are generally spared the loud digital mastering. For example, Radiohead records are a revelation and the recent vinyl Deadwing (Porcupine Tree) is a thing of wonder. 

Im sure Chord Dave is very good, but until they invent a DAC that restores DR “on the fly” I will keep a foot in both camps.

Keith

100% agree !

Drikus posted:

French Rooster posted:

my favorite in this price range:   rega p9 second hand. 

Great TT but still around £1700 second hand. Considering it's age, isn't there something new and better for this price?

the rp10 is a bit better, but much more expensive.  the differences are not night and day.

If I were in the market for a reasonably priced turntable I’d look into something from Well Tempered, new or second hand.  

the well tempered reference was a great deck.  The nowadays models are completely different and personally not my cup of tea.   just personal vision of course.

Olly posted:

The thing about nostalgia is it takes you back. 

My advice is to go forward. 

Olly

have a look on the best high end hifi shows nowadays, like Apoxona, CES las Vegas, Munich High End....hundreds of turntables to be seen, with also dacs, servers, streamers of course.

Some decks cost 200k, some phono stage 50k and more, and lots of cartridges more than 10k:  i don’t call it nostalgia !

???? Yetizone,.....if you maybe go for an LP12 with a Lingo1, you shall do this.It's a big difference to the better without the mains filter. The same also if you have the player in another system,....not only Naim-system

???? It is also recommended that if you have a Valhalla or Lingo 1 power supply fitted that these are overhauled every 10 years. As these are now no longer available it is definitely wise to have them checked out. We can also check and carry out upgrades and factory modifications to this board if required.
A service and re-build will also cure around 90% of faulty items
 

 Non UK shipping also available at cost price.
 
We now have stock of the Lingo 1 mains inlet without the filter.
◾ This will cure the problem of interference and sound degradation when used with Naim equipment◾ 
This can be fitted as part of a service????

This information is from Darren (ClassA).

We have recapp't a lot of Lingo1 at ClassA, Darren has also take away the mains-filter. In some ways a Lingo1 recappt,without a mains-filter is better in musicality than a Radikal power supply.

The Radikal is cleaner and clearer,but the Lingo1 recappt without a mains-filter is more fun to listen to.....think musicality.We did this test at a Linn-dealers store,and we all agree in this.....also the Linn-dealer.

/Peder???? 

Peder posted:

???? Yetizone,.....if you maybe go for an LP12 with a Lingo1, you shall do this.It's a big difference to the better without the mains filter. The same also if you have the player in another system,....not only Naim-system

???? It is also recommended that if you have a Valhalla or Lingo 1 power supply fitted that these are overhauled every 10 years. As these are now no longer available it is definitely wise to have them checked out. We can also check and carry out upgrades and factory modifications to this board if required.
A service and re-build will also cure around 90% of faulty items
 

 Non UK shipping also available at cost price.
 
We now have stock of the Lingo 1 mains inlet without the filter.
◾ This will cure the problem of interference and sound degradation when used with Naim equipment◾ 
This can be fitted as part of a service????

This information is from Darren (ClassA).

We have recapp't a lot of Lingo1 at ClassA, Darren has also take away the mains-filter. In some ways a Lingo1 recappt,without a mains-filter is better in musicality than a Radikal power supply.

The Radikal is cleaner and clearer,but the Lingo1 recappt without a mains-filter is more fun to listen to.....think musicality.We did this test at a Linn-dealers store,and we all agree in this.....also the Linn-dealer.

/Peder???? 

This might explain why I wasn't impressed with the Radikal after having a modified Lingo 1.