Moving away from their signature sound

TOBYJUG posted:

Sounsfaber posted.

 

YES YES YES!

The Naim signature sound. It’s been around for years and years in fact centries. 

Linn got there first.

Is that an early prototype of the SpArro? Looks a bit cheep.

G

Mulberry posted:

Hi Fred,

as much as I understand your view, there is more than a little substance to the speaker suggestions. Harbeth speakers are nice at what they do at how they sound. But engaging is not among the first ten or so words I would use to describe them. 

Your previous XS/Harbeth setup may have been a combination of slightly forward electronics and laid back speakers. The same speakers and less forward electronics may sound unengaging to you.

Good luck!

Valid and pertinent points, Mulberry.

Recording/mastering of popular music is currently what it is, and it makes sense that there is an element of new Naim kit being engineered/optimised accordingly. Most of it seems to be optimised for iTunes/lo-fi replay. Ergo; a high resolution system is fighting against the tide or trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I still get the best musical connection from my old vinyl and CD's and I think it's because the music wasn't digitally mangled with the life squeezed out of it.

I find it surprising that several contributors here seem to be happy with the likes of Tidal and (even worse), Spotify - in some cases via a domestic computer. I've heard comparisons of ripped CD's versus Tidal on a good Naim streaming system, and the latter was a poor second for me. Provenance of recordings is unknown. I don't perceive it as a high-fidelity source, but new Naim kit has inevitably, to try to make the best of it and other streamed services.

The democratisation and easy availability of music has its price - and it ain't monetary.

John.

Huge posted:

I have a 272/555DR + 300DR + Spendor SP2s

With Bach concerti and other Baroque counterpoint, I can easily follow all 3 or 4 counterpointed themes (analytical / round Earth)
With the jig at the end of Kara's Union Street, I just want to get up and dance (foot tapping / flat earth).
With Ari Mason's The Curse, I feel the confusion & anger and the complex rhythms (but it's hard to foot tap to something that relies so much on syncopation, so...  ?)
With Beethoven's 7th (SCO, Macerras) I feel his despair at his failing body, then the joy of his reconciliation as he finds he can still write music (analytical and emotional)

Perhaps better kit just lets you listen to whatever's there (multiple themes, intellectual design, emotional performance, rhythm) without removing so much from the signal.

I agree, I think good audio replay and ‘round earth’ must be a contradiction in terms... bit of a silly expression anyway given the world is round.

i enjoyed a concert of Bach’s Mass in B minor the other week... not a microphone, amplifier or speaker in sight... the timing was infectious and hugely foot tapping/head nodding... and the detail was sublime I could listen into the musicians and feel the timing ebb and flow with the conductor, and was so emotional in parts my eyes filled... now that is what a good system (and recording) should convey...

A good audio replay system and recording must convey emotion, detail, rhythm, pace, insight and enjoyment... in my book you can’t have one without the others... in fact I find the suggestion ridiculous.

i have to assume there must be a lot of people with compromised replay systems out there... and if the case they must be missing out on a huge amount... and no I don’t think Naim is moving away from its ‘signature sound performance’.. far from it.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

A good audio replay system and recording must convey emotion, detail, rhythm, pace, insight and enjoyment... in my book you can’t have one without the others...  

Shortly but beautifully summarized 

Fred, If you are still reading, it may be possible that though you loved your Harbeths with your XS set, other speakers sing more easily on the Nova. Maybe some Focals are worth are try for synergy.

C.

I think Naim have made a clear, and very clever, divide between their more mainstream, if you can really call a Nova that, let's say convenient instead, and their purist focused product lines.  The elephant in the room is the Statement, which is the pinnacle of Naim engineering, yet lends its styling to the entry level products, while the latest more hardcore streamer products due soon will retain the classic styling.  With the Statement being out of reach even for most dedicated purists, and being so different in terms of size, performance and cost, styling differences were unlikely to p off the existing hardcore customer base.

On every level, I think this approach is strategic commercial genius.  Roll back a bit, and you have Statement making news stories well outside of typical hifi / tech press and getting attention, putting the brand in front of many that would have never heard of it.  Releasing Muso products in the same styling and getting them into Apple stores, and John Lewis for example (although JL really didn't do it many favours in me view), was just a brilliant idea.

Now we have the Uniti range, also piggy-backing off the Statement and Muso to a degree, trying to get high-end audio back into the homes of the normal affluent, where many would have thought the world of audio perfection ended with Sonos, Bose, or perhaps B & O.

I think it's pretty obvious that Naim would ideally not choose to place wireless connectivity, DSP, DAC, pre-amp, power amp, and the required massive toroidal transformer all in one box when looking to deliver the best sound quality from all of those things.  What they've also realised, is that most people on the planet couldn't give a rats ass about that, and that they don't want stacks of boxes in their living room.  The same compromise was made with the previous uniti range, but I think Naim have their foot in a different door now, and with the convenience / lifestyle nature, and in my view, more aesthetically pleasing Uniti range, they will start to push the door open.

I don't doubt that the Nova and the rest of the Uniti range have been carefully engineered to be good as they can be, but it wouldn't totally surprise me if there was some engineering somewhere to favour lo-fi sources a little more.  Even if not, I would not necessarily expect the Novas pre / power amp section to perform better than a Nait XS2 for example.  The Nova and the rest of the Uniti range, great though they may be, are a compromise to deliver convenience, and I suspect equally seduce some new blood into high-end audio products, who may buy classic range, or whatever that becomes in the future.   

I've owned an XS 2 twice. Love  the sound of it. I would have bought a third but ended up with a SuperNait instead. I also have a 272 based system. All 3 sound different. Maybe it's just you prefer the XS based system to the Nova. No shame in that other than you now own the Nova and not the XS based system. 

A Lot of asumptions without ever hearing a Nova. The Nova is in every way clear ahead of the XS. Its just that the Pratt is for some gone.

Christopher_M posted:

Fred, If you are still reading, it may be possible that though you loved your Harbeths with your XS set, other speakers sing more easily on the Nova. Maybe some Focals are worth are try for synergy.

C.

Tried them. Dull...Sorry nothing else to say.

Fred, it seems to me that you are describing the same feelings that I've been trying to get across in my Detail vs Musicality thread, and I would really welcome your comments on the broader topic.  I can't speak from experience with the Nova, or much else from the Naim stable; I am a relative newbie to Naim, but not hifi in general.

I think I understand where you're coming from, and have felt the same frustration at times.  What you've said above is that it sounds better, but lacks PRaT.  Well, PRaT is part of 'sounding' better, or worse, not something that comes as a bonus to the perfect sound, it's a fundamental part of it, and is made up of many things in my view.  If it sounds better in every way, but you don't like it.......it's not better.

I think that last sentence sums it up nicely. No assumptions needed to understand that. 

fred47 posted:

J.N. posted:

I think you make a very pertinent point, Fred.

Levity or Leviticus?

Okay; time to get serious/boring.

I was introduced to Naim Audio in 1982 when I made my first purchase of a 32.5/160. Club membership was then an arcane delight; and continued to be so for many years.

Naim amplification back in those heady pre-digital days was largely designed by ear (and personal preference) on the chosen/most common (arguably) best source available; the relatively warm sounding Linn LP12. Ergo; the amps of that era had a unique sonic signature. Ditto the early Naim loudspeakers.

A Naim dealer once said to me 'Digital is the great leveller' and I think that streaming has brought more weight to that assertion.

Add to that, the fact that Naim has to some extent been corporately absorbed and its new masters have their eyes principally on profit and growth as opposed to appealing to a select and small band of purists. Super-cables with super profit margins Sir? A fine indicator of how things have changed/evolved.

I think the Naim sound has to become more mainstream (flat Earth?) with a broader market appeal to survive commercially, and if that's the price we have to pay for Naim to stay in business and be able to develop and manufacture such wonderful products as the Statement amps; so be it.

On a practical level Fred, it sounds as though the Nova and Harbeths aren't gelling together, so maybe one of them needs to change to re-establish satisfying musical synergy?

Good luck.

John.

 

 

 

I find it difficult to understand why I (some have made that sugestion) should change my speakers. They gave such a thrill in my previous xs set.So its hard to understand why the Nova is less engaging with the same speakers and setup. Surely it makes me think it is a Nova problem. And yes I guess Naim is going more mainstream, and yes it may be a software glitch( maybe delibriate maybe not . What strikes me that  a lot of people in the Dutch Naim topic forum has since then moverd away from Naim and found there audio heaven in the Scottish mountains.

Speakers are  specific and subjective.  Another component may add more base or and more top end.  This  can throw out the whole system.  The other component maybe technically better but makes the system as a whole sound worse.  Yet in another room improve component on the exact same system may sound better.  It is not that the SX amp is better it is just that it is working better for you in the situation you have.

The thing is, speakers are the single most significant component in terms of character of the sound, so changing them if you have something that you really like the sound of is a big ask, and can involve an awful lot of work. Maybe it is necessary - but if it were me I’d want to be sure the Nova is really what I liked and intended to keep long term, and be sure it is then the speakers that are the problem not the Nova.

Innocent Bystander posted:

The thing is, speakers are the single most significant component in terms of character of the sound, so changing them if you have something that you really like the sound of is a big ask, and can involve an awful lot of work. Maybe it is necessary - but if it were me I’d want to be sure the Nova is really what I liked and intended to keep long term, and be sure it is then the speakers that are the problem not the Nova.

Agree entirely speakers are an absolute drama to get right and if you have a set that you have previously loved with another amp but aren't sounding great with a new amp then personally I would keep the speakers and change the amp.   

Ok....After yet another week of running in the Nova I can make a better judgment! I like the sound of the Nova and whether this is a trick of the mind  , but it seems to get better everyday. And in terms of the pure Hifi values (what ever that may be) Its far exceeding my XS Set,I hear things floating around my room, Voices are livelike, details incredible. I hear things I never heard before. Dynamics and controls WOW....So at first glance you might think its an no brainer.But.....wait.

The sounds of the XS becomes a distance and faded memory or I get used to the sound I guess and like to think.and althoughas said  it gets better every day its just lacking emotion. Whether this is deu to the Nova , speakers , cables, or the firmware (personally I think ) remains to be seen. At the moment I do not want to part with the Nova despite its ugly apearance. Soundwise....WOW again. as for engament...Hmm.

my second ex ( she has a unityqute) is also excited, and strangly enough she feels the emotion. My girlfriend has NAD, with Dali speakers and BRRRRRRRRRR.

I like to thank you all for the advice given and in some case the much needed  moral suport

Going back to the question originally posed:

If I understand correctly, Naim’s fundamental philosophy is about the timing (incorporating pace & rhythm) of music, seeking above all to achieve timing accuracy, an aim that over the hyears has considered other aspects of sound quality to be secondary, not minding getting them less than accurate as long as timing accuracy was achieved. If that is the case, could it be that the changing ‘Naim sound’ is due to Naim, once they mastered achievement of accurate  timing, then seeking to improve the accuracy of other aspects of the sound (without dropping timing accuracy)?

In other words could it be that what some perceive as the ‘Naim sound’, is actually incidental to what Naim were trying to achieve, a distortion of reality if you like, maybe over-emphasising some aspects of the sound or suppressing others, and the change to it being Naim pursuing the an intent to have no imposed character? It might be that Naim is seeking total neutrality of sound - true fidelity to what was recorded,  including timing. 

If so, isn’t that a good thing?

fred47 posted:

Pev posted:

I worked my way up over 20 years to a full fat olive system (CDS2/XPS/52/SC/135s) then went to Uniti, then Superuniti and now Nova. Never been happier with my music system - Nova is a big step from SU for me.

I Agree...My Nova ( and I guess al Novas) Is  far better sounding then the XS gear I had in the previous years. More detail, more soundstage and I could go on in this way. But stil a bit laidback and uninspiring overall sound.

That is the reason, why I chosen the Star over the Nova after several comparisons.

Nova better in all aspects of hifi but somehow boring and to controlled for me.

Star way more fun and livelier.

Ch70 posted:

fred47 posted:

Pev posted:

I worked my way up over 20 years to a full fat olive system (CDS2/XPS/52/SC/135s) then went to Uniti, then Superuniti and now Nova. Never been happier with my music system - Nova is a big step from SU for me.

I Agree...My Nova ( and I guess al Novas) Is  far better sounding then the XS gear I had in the previous years. More detail, more soundstage and I could go on in this way. But stil a bit laidback and uninspiring overall sound.

That is the reason, why I chosen the Star over the Nova after several comparisons.

Nova better in all aspects of hifi but somehow boring and to controlled for me.

Star way more fun and livelier.

Clearly nothing to do with an evolving new ‘Naim sound’ as they are the same range launched close to each other. I’m not too clear what is the real difference between the Star and Nova, other than that Nova has a slightly more powerful amp and maybe no CD(?), costing a touch more - from which I take it that Nova is intended to be the better of the two. Could it be, simply, Star does something ‘wrong’ compared to Nova, but it is something that has an effect you like (e.g a colouration tbat exaggerates something in the sound that engages you more)?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Ch70 posted:

fred47 posted:

Pev posted:

I worked my way up over 20 years to a full fat olive system (CDS2/XPS/52/SC/135s) then went to Uniti, then Superuniti and now Nova. Never been happier with my music system - Nova is a big step from SU for me.

I Agree...My Nova ( and I guess al Novas) Is  far better sounding then the XS gear I had in the previous years. More detail, more soundstage and I could go on in this way. But stil a bit laidback and uninspiring overall sound.

That is the reason, why I chosen the Star over the Nova after several comparisons.

Nova better in all aspects of hifi but somehow boring and to controlled for me.

Star way more fun and livelier.

Clearly nothing to do with an evolving new ‘Naim sound’ as they are the same range launched close to each other. I’m not too clear what is the real difference between the Star and Nova, other than that Nova has a slightly more powerful amp and maybe no CD(?), costing a touch more - from which I take it that Nova is intended to be the better of the two. Could it be, simply, Star does something ‘wrong’ compared to Nova, but it is something that has an effect you like (e.g a colouration tbat exaggerates something in the sound that engages you more)?

Call it colouration or wrong or whatever:-)

Fact is, the nova for me more "hifi" the Star more "music"!

Same as XS vs. SN1

the "better" units more controlled and therefore for me not as engaging and  somehow a little bit boring!

There is no "truth", your own ears will tell you what you like most!