New to using a digital server.....

don’t sell your turntable to replace it by a digital system, or you will regret it. For me a high quality vinyl sound is still better than high end digital.

For server / dac, streamers....there is a lot of solutions.  What is your budget ?  your electronics ?

Start by buying a nas drive. Popular ones are synology or qnap, or alternatively naims own uniticore. If using a nas drive you will need to convert your cd collection to computer files (usually wav or flac) with a programme like dbpoweramp. If using naims uniticore it will rip the discs for you as well as storing and serving them to your streamer. 

To play all this ripped and stored music you need a streamer. Naim sell these but you can also use a computer connected to a dac to do this. I would suggest the uniticore serving into a naim streamer would be the easiest and most straightforward way into streaming, unless you are quite good with computers.

French Rooster posted:

don’t sell your turntable to replace it by a digital system, or you will regret it. For me a high quality vinyl sound is still better than high end digital.

The important words here are "for me".  It is a very personal decision.  Vinyl is not, technically, in any way better than digital.  It has much reduced dynamic range (the advantage of digital here is somewhat thrown away in the loudness wars, which fortunately are in decline), it has greater distortion (the cartridge cannot be aligned properly throughout its arc across the record; the speed that the vinyl moves under the needle varies across the record, affecting the wavelength of the information in different parts of the record; you can get sound from one part of the groove affecting the sound in adjacent parts of the groove etc.), there is much more unwanted noise from vinyl (surface hiss even on perfectly clean records, plus dust on most records - which can lead to permanent damage to the record), surface wear (you lose the hi frequencies first, and quite quickly in many cases).  Recording to LP has many more steps, including the need to filter the frequencies (RIAA) in an attempt at squeezing all the information into what is, when you get down to it, a very poor recording technology.  Towards the inner section of the LP you start to reach the limit of the resolution of the vinyl medium (grain size vs wavelength).  All in all vinyl is not a good way of recording music.

Which is not to say that you should not enjoy it - though a cheaper way of getting that effect would be to introduce the various distortions into the music produced by digital systems - filter out some of the HF, add a little warmth, restrict the dynamic range, even introduce some hiss and maybe a little wow and flutter for the full effect, maybe even some rumble.  But to say that someone else will regret selling their TT is being a little over-certain.  They may regret it - but probably not.  

I sold my Rega Planar 3 (with RB300 arm) not very long ago.  I really couldn't take all the losses in quality any longer, compared with digital.  For me, absolutely no regrets at all.

it is my experience,  not theory.  I have the best to date digital naim source but find something more when listening to my lps.  Something more true, more natural.   ( rega rp10 , before sme20 /2).    Perhaps your rega p3 was tired, your lps in bad condition, your cart and phono stage of average quality....i don’t know....

French Rooster posted:

it is my experience,  not theory.  I have the best to date digital naim source but find something more when listening to my lps.  Something more true, more natural.   ( rega rp10 , before sme20 /2).    Perhaps your rega p3 was tired, your lps in bad condition, your cart and phono stage of average quality....i don’t know....

Like I said - you might prefer it, subjectively.  But what you are listening to is not what was originally going to the microphones.  To then say that other people will also prefer it is misleading.  They might - many do - but that is not a given.  

There is no point suggesting that the p3 was tired (whatever that means - it had the new motor, the latest arm) and I looked after my LPs very well indeed.  Even the most perfect TT and cartridge with pristine LPs will inevitably have the faults I listed.  It is inherent in the system, and cannot be circumvented.  The best that can be done is to reduce their effects.  The dynamic range is limited (60-80 dB at best (though typically 55-65) dB vs 90-96 dB for CD recordings) - no way round that.  And yes, many CDs are recorded with poor dynamic range - to make them sound better - but this is not inherent in the system, only in the way that it is used in some, but by no means all, cases.  Signal to noise ratio is better on CD - again, this is inherent in the two media.  You cannot have no surface noise on an LP.  You will probably have other noise also, no matter how much you clean it.  And the record will wear - you cannot avoid that - losing high frequencies in particular.  And the linear velocity of the track changes across the disc.  No way round that at all.  

So if you prefer LP to CD then it is not because LP is better, but because you prefer the sound it produces, warts and all.  That's fine - but that is your subjective preference.  It would, of course, be perfectly possible to introduce all these faults into digital playback, and presumably you would be happy with that (if you didn't know that it was digital).  

I suspect the OP would like an answer to his question rather than the merits of Vinyl vs Digital...

David - it might be worth you mentioning what system you have already and an idea of budget. Do you have a load of CD's you want to rip, store and play or do you want to be able to stream from some of the online services such as Tidal.

James

True. Apologies

vintageaxeman posted:

 

Hi, I am interested in trying to set up a new digital server, something I haven't done before. Would you mind sharing what yours actually is, please? Thank you, David

Hi there,

My server is an Innuos Zenith MkII SE, but that's not the whole story.

Since the birth of the CD, argument has raged about which is better....analog or digital. In my opinion the answer to that is quite clearly analog. It sounded warmer, more natural, more detailed with a more layered soundstage. It also avoided that typical digital glare or hardness that made music sound clean but slightly mechanical in digital systems .  But recently things have changed and today, I would definitely say that Digital is now my preferred recording medium and that it now sounds more musical than analog. In comparison, analog sounds quite noisy, with a corresponding loss of low level detail and has limited dynamic ability compared to the best digital.

So what's changed?  In a word, digital noise. Not the kind of noise you can hear, but the type that upsets the delicate processing of digital signals within the DAC. The major difference between analog and digital is that in analog, the noise is audible and is superimposed on the music. As it has exactly the same form and frequencies as the music, once its been added to the sound it cannot be easily removed. Digital is entirely different.  Digital noise is inaudible, and rather than being superimposed on the music, its actually disturbs the way the musical signal is processed, damaging it as a result and compromising the way digital music sounds. Within a CDP, you have several motors, power supplies and processors that all contribute noise that can and do modulate processes within the DAC, for example affecting clock frequencies causing jitter.  For years we have lived with this noise and almost certainly not fully understood its profound effect on the music. Today its different.  Earlier I said that noise typically cannot be removed from an analog signal but this is not true for digital. Today we have the means to condition (remove noise and jitter) then protect digital signals, thereby avoiding a lot of the damage that noise and jitter causes.  The result is a pristine digital signal that has none of the interfering noise of analog and none of the distortion caused by digital noise.  The result can be stunningly natural music, with all the low level detail, pace, rhythm, timing (musical impetus),  soundstage detail and focus and natural acoustics all perfectly intact.  No more glare or hardness, just beautiful, accurate timbres of voices and instruments and incredible listener involvement.  

To achieve the above in the digital domain requires a strategy. Essentially as the signal passes through our system it should become increasingly pure and increasing well protected. That can mean removing noise and jitter and it can also mean removing the sources of noise and jitter. Let me give you an example for streaming.  The signal arrives in your house via Internet at your modem.  That signal may be  sent straight to your hi-fi, or it can be passed to a network switch, where it is 'de-noised' and 're-clocked' to remove jitter. The cleaned up signal may then be passed to your server along a short, well protected, high quality Ethernet cable. The server is powered by low noise linear power supplies and has audio optimized digital interfaces to pass the signal to the DAC. No motors, servos or any noise generating devices to contaminate the cleaned up signal are running within the Server, which is designed to add as little noise and jitter as possible.  From the server the signal is passed to the DAC along short, high quality, optimally protected cables.  Their may be additional reclocking at the interface. The Mains radials feeding the server, DAC and amps are free of any noise generating devices like switch mode power supplies.

When real care is taken to clean and protect the digital signal, sound quality takes an immediate upswing, potentially achieving levels most audiophiles would not deem possible from the humble red book CD file format.   

And my digital server is a Synology 112j with a 2TB WD Red disk.

Blackmorec posted:

 

vintageaxeman posted:

 

Hi, I am interested in trying to set up a new digital server, something I haven't done before. Would you mind sharing what yours actually is, please? Thank you, David

Hi there,

My server is an Innuos Zenith MkII SE, but that's not the whole story.

Since the birth of the CD, argument has raged about which is better....analog or digital. In my opinion the answer to that is quite clearly analog. It sounded warmer, more natural, more detailed with a more layered soundstage. It also avoided that typical digital glare or hardness that made music sound clean but slightly mechanical in digital systems .  But recently things have changed and today, I would definitely say that Digital is now my preferred recording medium and that it now sounds more musical than analog. In comparison, analog sounds quite noisy, with a corresponding loss of low level detail and has limited dynamic ability compared to the best digital.

So what's changed?  In a word, digital noise. Not the kind of noise you can hear, but the type that upsets the delicate processing of digital signals within the DAC. The major difference between analog and digital is that in analog, the noise is audible and is superimposed on the music. As it has exactly the same form and frequencies as the music, once its been added to the sound it cannot be easily removed. Digital is entirely different.  Digital noise is inaudible, and rather than being superimposed on the music, its actually disturbs the way the musical signal is processed, damaging it as a result and compromising the way digital music sounds. Within a CDP, you have several motors, power supplies and processors that all contribute noise that can and do modulate processes within the DAC, for example affecting clock frequencies causing jitter.  For years we have lived with this noise and almost certainly not fully understood its profound effect on the music. Today its different.  Earlier I said that noise typically cannot be removed from an analog signal but this is not true for digital. Today we have the means to condition (remove noise and jitter) then protect digital signals, thereby avoiding a lot of the damage that noise and jitter causes.  The result is a pristine digital signal that has none of the interfering noise of analog and none of the distortion caused by digital noise.  The result can be stunningly natural music, with all the low level detail, pace, rhythm, timing (musical impetus),  soundstage detail and focus and natural acoustics all perfectly intact.  No more glare or hardness, just beautiful, accurate timbres of voices and instruments and incredible listener involvement.  

To achieve the above in the digital domain requires a strategy. Essentially as the signal passes through our system it should become increasingly pure and increasing well protected. That can mean removing noise and jitter and it can also mean removing the sources of noise and jitter. Let me give you an example for streaming.  The signal arrives in your house via Internet at your modem.  That signal may be  sent straight to your hi-fi, or it can be passed to a network switch, where it is 'de-noised' and 're-clocked' to remove jitter. The cleaned up signal may then be passed to your server along a short, well protected, high quality Ethernet cable. The server is powered by low noise linear power supplies and has audio optimized digital interfaces to pass the signal to the DAC. No motors, servos or any noise generating devices to contaminate the cleaned up signal are running within the Server, which is designed to add as little noise and jitter as possible.  From the server the signal is passed to the DAC along short, high quality, optimally protected cables.  Their may be additional reclocking at the interface. The Mains radials feeding the server, DAC and amps are free of any noise generating devices like switch mode power supplies.

When real care is taken to clean and protect the digital signal, sound quality takes an immediate upswing, potentially achieving levels most audiophiles would not deem possible from the humble red book CD file format.   

i have unitserve powered by a high quality linear ps/ uptone audio js2: the server.

naim nds/555 dr: the streaming dac.

cisco 2960 switch, audioquest diamond ethernet cables, one from the router, one to the nds.

turntable:  rega rp10, lyra delos cart, ear 912 phono.

I still find the good recorded lps sounding more true and natural vs the best digital files.  

Your point of view is also personal, as mine.    I am quite sure you have never heard a state of the art analog system ( not rega or linn level).  You would be surprised probably...

French Rooster posted:

Blackmorec posted:

 

vintageaxeman posted:

 

Hi, I am interested in trying to set up a new digital server, something I haven't done before. Would you mind sharing what yours actually is, please? Thank you, David

Hi there,

My server is an Innuos Zenith MkII SE, but that's not the whole story.

Since the birth of the CD, argument has raged about which is better....analog or digital. In my opinion the answer to that is quite clearly analog. It sounded warmer, more natural, more detailed with a more layered soundstage. It also avoided that typical digital glare or hardness that made music sound clean but slightly mechanical in digital systems .  But recently things have changed and today, I would definitely say that Digital is now my preferred recording medium and that it now sounds more musical than analog. In comparison, analog sounds quite noisy, with a corresponding loss of low level detail and has limited dynamic ability compared to the best digital.

So what's changed?  In a word, digital noise. Not the kind of noise you can hear, but the type that upsets the delicate processing of digital signals within the DAC. The major difference between analog and digital is that in analog, the noise is audible and is superimposed on the music. As it has exactly the same form and frequencies as the music, once its been added to the sound it cannot be easily removed. Digital is entirely different.  Digital noise is inaudible, and rather than being superimposed on the music, its actually disturbs the way the musical signal is processed, damaging it as a result and compromising the way digital music sounds. Within a CDP, you have several motors, power supplies and processors that all contribute noise that can and do modulate processes within the DAC, for example affecting clock frequencies causing jitter.  For years we have lived with this noise and almost certainly not fully understood its profound effect on the music. Today its different.  Earlier I said that noise typically cannot be removed from an analog signal but this is not true for digital. Today we have the means to condition (remove noise and jitter) then protect digital signals, thereby avoiding a lot of the damage that noise and jitter causes.  The result is a pristine digital signal that has none of the interfering noise of analog and none of the distortion caused by digital noise.  The result can be stunningly natural music, with all the low level detail, pace, rhythm, timing (musical impetus),  soundstage detail and focus and natural acoustics all perfectly intact.  No more glare or hardness, just beautiful, accurate timbres of voices and instruments and incredible listener involvement.  

To achieve the above in the digital domain requires a strategy. Essentially as the signal passes through our system it should become increasingly pure and increasing well protected. That can mean removing noise and jitter and it can also mean removing the sources of noise and jitter. Let me give you an example for streaming.  The signal arrives in your house via Internet at your modem.  That signal may be  sent straight to your hi-fi, or it can be passed to a network switch, where it is 'de-noised' and 're-clocked' to remove jitter. The cleaned up signal may then be passed to your server along a short, well protected, high quality Ethernet cable. The server is powered by low noise linear power supplies and has audio optimized digital interfaces to pass the signal to the DAC. No motors, servos or any noise generating devices to contaminate the cleaned up signal are running within the Server, which is designed to add as little noise and jitter as possible.  From the server the signal is passed to the DAC along short, high quality, optimally protected cables.  Their may be additional reclocking at the interface. The Mains radials feeding the server, DAC and amps are free of any noise generating devices like switch mode power supplies.

When real care is taken to clean and protect the digital signal, sound quality takes an immediate upswing, potentially achieving levels most audiophiles would not deem possible from the humble red book CD file format.   

i have unitserve powered by a high quality linear ps/ uptone audio js2: the server.

naim nds/555 dr: the streaming dac.

cisco 2960 switch, audioquest diamond ethernet cables, one from the router, one to the nds.

turntable:  rega rp10, lyra delos cart, ear 912 phono.

I still find the good recorded lps sounding more true and natural vs the best digital files.  

Your point of view is also personal, as mine.    I am quite sure you have never heard a state of the art analog system ( not rega or linn level).  You would be surprised probably...

You are right about never hearing a SOTA analog system other than at audio shows, which is hardly the best place to hear anything. Having said that I have owned analog systems that cost upwards of 4 -5 times my digital system and my digital system is nevertheless superior.  Analog suffers limitations that are simply not present in digital, however analog was able to produce a more musical sound despite its shortcomings. But what I am saying is that in my judgement today, I don’t find my analog system to be more the musical....rather my digital system now sounds the more realistic, more ‘human’ and by virtue of its lack of  vinyl’s limitations, more involving and enjoyable So maybe it is my preference but what I hear is that compared to my digital set up, my analog system sounds great but rather ‘old’ and dated or maybe slightly primitive is a more apt description.  In terms of creating a believable ‘recording venue with musicians’ in my room, my digital system is now quite well ahead. 

There's a lot of words in this thread!

You could read them all or you could just buy a UnitiCore.

Job done!

best

David

David Hendon posted:

There's a lot of words in this thread!

You could read them all or you could just buy a UnitiCore.

Job done!

best

David

Or a simple NAS drive!

French Rooster posted:

don’t sell your turntable to replace it by a digital system, or you will regret it. For me a high quality vinyl sound is still better than high end digital.

For server / dac, streamers....there is a lot of solutions.  What is your budget ?  your electronics ?

Hi Rooster.

Thanks for your reply.

My budget is as close to zero as possible. I do want to have as good a quality level as possible, bearing in mind that I have a Naim DAC already. I can use my Macbook Pro in the process, but I do not want to store music on it as it has a limited size hdd. Nor do I want to physically 'hang drives off it' while I am using it on my knees on the sofa.  I would however like to use my Macbook with a Linn, Naim or similar app to control everything. I would prefer it all control it all wirelessly.  I have a couple of spare 2.5" portable SSD drives in enclosures with USB outputs, and I have access to an Audioengine B1 bluetooth 24bit wireless receiver that I can try out. What I don't know is how to proceed. I also have Audirvana Plus currently loaded on my Macbook Pro.

It seems that unless one ploughs cash into a Naim (or other) system, which I cannot afford to do, then everyone seems to use different combinations of kit with various controlling systems, and for me, that's where it starts to get very confusing. So any concrete suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

james n posted:

I suspect the OP would like an answer to his question rather than the merits of Vinyl vs Digital...

David - it might be worth you mentioning what system you have already and an idea of budget. Do you have a load of CD's you want to rip, store and play or do you want to be able to stream from some of the online services such as Tidal.

James

Hi James. Thank you, that simplifies things a little!

Yes I do have over a thousand CDs but at this stage I have no intention to ofload them as they sound very good through my CD playing system.  However, I buy quite a bit of vinyl, some of which has download codes, so I want to have these on the 'system'. I do not want to pay monthly subscriptions for music so I think tidal, Qobuz, etc etc are out. However, the free Spotify I use all the time for investigating new music. I might consider downloading from this or even using AudioHijack which can capture any audio from my computer, to record the occasional radio show. So I would like this to influence the decisions. Depending on how things go, I might also consider a Spotify premium subscription eventually but not at first.

Your choices / decisions sound reasonable to me. However, I would recommend Qobuz (192/24), Tidal master as sources, they sound superb through my system.

Like many Naim users, I am and have been a vinyl fan, but I primarily listen to hires streaming nowadays for the sake of conveniences, and enjoy LPs for some special occasions at late, quiet evenings. My LP12's background noise is silent on some recordings, so it depends on the quality of the LPs.

David Hendon posted:

There's a lot of words in this thread!

You could read them all or you could just buy a UnitiCore.

Job done!

best

David

Yep. I did this...No hassle with thousand of programs to find on the internet. Just stick a CD in the core. Job done and better sounding.

vintageaxeman posted:

French Rooster posted:

don’t sell your turntable to replace it by a digital system, or you will regret it. For me a high quality vinyl sound is still better than high end digital.

For server / dac, streamers....there is a lot of solutions.  What is your budget ?  your electronics ?

Hi Rooster.

Thanks for your reply.

My budget is as close to zero as possible. I do want to have as good a quality level as possible, bearing in mind that I have a Naim DAC already. I can use my Macbook Pro in the process, but I do not want to store music on it as it has a limited size hdd. Nor do I want to physically 'hang drives off it' while I am using it on my knees on the sofa.  I would however like to use my Macbook with a Linn, Naim or similar app to control everything. I would prefer it all control it all wirelessly.  I have a couple of spare 2.5" portable SSD drives in enclosures with USB outputs, and I have access to an Audioengine B1 bluetooth 24bit wireless receiver that I can try out. What I don't know is how to proceed. I also have Audirvana Plus currently loaded on my Macbook Pro.

It seems that unless one ploughs cash into a Naim (or other) system, which I cannot afford to do, then everyone seems to use different combinations of kit with various controlling systems, and for me, that's where it starts to get very confusing. So any concrete suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

i don’t know if the uniticore is on your budget, it would be paired nicely with your ndac. It can store, rip cds, and stream .

Or you have also something like blue sound node, to pair with your dac.   Innuos zen mini also for a little budget and good quality.

As you want low budget suggestions...

A basic NAS drive - Synology or QNAP (£160) + an Allo One Player (~£160)
Look at www.allo.com      sparky-eu/digione-player.html

Use these to feed your NDAC.

Later you can keep the NAS and upgrade to NDX2 if funds and motivation are there.